Episode Summary
The doula community talks about abundance mindset constantly, but the actual behavior in many local communities tells a different story. In this episode, Dr. Robin Elise Weiss and Dr. Hillary Melchiors dig into the professional dynamics that shape how doulas treat each other across the experience spectrum. They name what a scarcity mindset actually looks like in practice, why it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and why newer doulas often misread what established doulas can and should offer them. This is a direct, honest conversation about the professional culture that determines whether doulas stay in this work long-term or burn out trying to fight for a piece of a pie that was never shrinking.
The episode moves through mentorship as a practical structure, the difference between what newer doulas think they need and what actually builds their practice, pricing psychology as a confidence signal, and the underexamined role that race, class, and geography play in who gets included in local doula communities. Robin and Hillary make the case that the doula community serves everyone better when established practitioners function as connectors rather than gatekeepers, and that reciprocity, not charity, is the right frame for inter-doula relationships. If you have navigated a competitive local market, been on either end of a mentor-mentee relationship that went sideways, or wrestled with your own scarcity thinking, this episode is the conversation you have probably needed for a while.
Listen to This Episode
Episode Time Stamps
0:00 Introduction: Abundance mindset versus what actually happens
1:30 Hillary’s experience reaching out to established doulas as a newer practitioner
2:47 The flip side: What experienced doulas notice in newer doulas reaching out
4:03 The referral assumption: Why “send me your clients” doesn’t work
6:04 What experienced doulas actually can offer new ones
8:08 Where scarcity mindset comes from and why it backfires
9:31 You are not the right doula for everyone: The McDonald’s analogy
10:44 What scarcity looks like in practice: Badmouthing other doulas
11:35 Childbirth educator case study: Competition panic that wasn’t warranted
13:19 New doula overcommitment: Eight births a month and what happens next
14:08 What mentoring relationships actually look like (agency model vs. informal)
16:32 When it’s appropriate to charge for mentorship
17:59 The comparison trap and the advice to focus on your own business
18:42 Pricing psychology: Why low prices sometimes cost you clients
20:42 Who gets excluded: Race, class, geography, and the scarcity mindset
22:19 Using community as a connector: Who’s not at the table
24:00 Rural doulas and why regional solutions beat universal ones
25:35 Agency and collective models as alternatives to solo practice
27:07 How experienced doulas offer creative solutions newer ones don’t know exist
28:08 Building trust through showing up: Community meetings and referral relationships
29:51 If no one knows what a doula is: Starting with education instead of competition
31:36 The two superpowers for building trust with established doulas
32:56 Why mentorship accelerates longevity in birth work
34:23 How to find a mentor: Practical guidance
36:02 Closing: Reciprocity and why the whole doula community rises together
Key Takeaways
- Scarcity mindset is a self-fulfilling prophecy that actively undermines the business it claims to protect. When doulas hoard clients, bad-mouth competitors, or refuse to network, they cut themselves off from the referral relationships that fill their calendars. The doulas Robin and Hillary have watched operate from abundance are the ones who are still practicing a decade later. Scarcity is not a market reality for most birth professionals; it is a cognitive pattern that creates the shortage it fears.
- New doulas often misread what established doulas can offer, which poisons the relationship before it starts. Walking into an established doula’s inbox and asking for referrals, client lists, or free mentorship without a relationship signals that you have not thought through what that person actually has to gain. What experienced doulas can offer is access to community, backup relationships, insider knowledge about local providers and hospitals, and creative practice models that newer practitioners do not know exist. That exchange has to be reciprocal.
- Pricing too low is not a safety strategy; it is often a client repellent. If you are not getting hired and your prices are at the bottom of your local market, the problem may not be that you cost too much. Robin’s consistent advice is to raise prices when doulas are stalled, because a rate that signals inexperience or desperation reads differently to potential clients than a rate that communicates professional value. Undercutting other doulas does not build a practice; it undercuts the entire local market.
- Race, class, and geography determine who gets included in local doula networks, and that exclusion is not accidental. The conversation about scarcity cannot stay only at the level of individual mindset. Who gets mentored, who gets invited to community meetings, and who receives referrals is shaped by structural factors that experienced doulas have the power to address. Rural doulas need rural networks, not national solutions. Doulas trying to serve communities that look like them need mentors who understand that context, not generic business advice.
- The two most important professional skills for newer doulas are communication and showing up, not credentials. Hillary is direct about what makes her trust a newer doula enough to refer to or partner with them: they communicate clearly and consistently, and they keep their commitments. Credentials and enthusiasm matter, but the doulas who get referred are the ones who have demonstrated reliability in the field. This is the work of the first few years, and it cannot be shortcut.
- Mentorship requires specificity; coming in with goals is not optional. A newer doula who approaches a mentor with ‘I need to learn everything’ cannot be effectively taught. Mentors, formal or informal, give better guidance when they know what the person actually needs. Vet paid mentors the same way you would any professional service, and make sure any doula-specific mentorship is coming from someone who has actually done the work. Non-doulas offering doula business coaching is a pattern both Robin and Hillary call out directly.
- The doula community as a whole performs better when established practitioners function as connectors rather than gatekeepers. Robin makes the case that being booked out does not mean closing off; it means knowing who to send clients to. Established doulas who build and share local knowledge, introduce newer practitioners to hospital relationships, and create referral networks are doing something that benefits the families they serve as much as the colleagues they support. Reciprocity and community-building are not soft concepts; they are the infrastructure that keeps birth professionals in practice.
When appropriate
Mentioned in This Episode
From The Birth Geeks Podcast
Episode 66: Navigating Birth, Burnout, and Being Queer in Midwifery with Katie Shannon
Episode 41: The Doula Darcy Talks About Marketing Your Birth Business
Episode 21: Special Collaboration Episode with Sara Pixton of Birth Words
Episode 19: Changing Policy, Questions New Doulas Ask, ABC Show & More
From the Blog
Working as a Doula in an Agency: What You Need to Know
Doula Collaboration Opportunities That Help Everyone (Versus the Ones That Waste Time)
New Doula Pricing Mistakes: Why $400 Isn’t Enough for Your First Birth
New Doula Tips: Do You Really Need a Backup Doula?
Is Burnout Threatening Your Doula Career?
Doula Burnout Prevention: Things to Do After a Difficult Birth (That Actually Work)
The Best Facebook Groups for Doulas — And How to Use Them to Grow Your Business
Assessing Your Doula Business for Growth
Read the Full Transcript
Note: This transcript is auto-generated and may contain minor errors. Please refer to the audio for precise language, especially around clinical terms and data. And yes, sometimes “doula” gets interpreted… creatively.
Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:00]: Sorry. Hey, Hillary. Hi, Robin. So I really am excited about today's topic. So today we are going to talk about doula competition. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:00:12]: Oh, you know, I love talking about this. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:15]: Now, I always tell everybody in my doula training that I have and want them to have an abundance mindset, right? That there are enough clients out there for everyone. And I like to start with the hard truth that you are not the right doula for everyone, but it's okay. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:00:35]: I think, well, I think, um, yes and, right? Yes, I want everyone to have an abundance mindset, and that has not always been what I have encountered with other doulas. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:47]: No, it's not. And we have to look at this from two halves, right? There's the life of a new doula and there's the life of a doula with experience.. And so let's talk about both sides of that coin. So do you want to talk about, as the newer doula between the two of us, which is funny because I've been around, I know, 12 years since. So as the newer doula in this relationship, do you want to talk a little bit about, I know you had some conversations with some established doulas in the area, which is something I recommend as a trainer, right? And you went out and did it. And like, tell me a little bit about how that went for you. Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:01:30]: So when I was looking into becoming a doula, I specifically reached out to doulas in my area and they were so very welcoming to me. And they, you know, just kind of brought me into the fold and were like, I got to hear the like behind the scenes conversation before I was even a doula. So that was really fascinating to me. Also, I'm an anthropologist and I just love how people, you know, think about things. So that's kind of my jam. So, but I specifically, I wanted to kind of get the lay of the land. That was my entire intention. Like, is this feasible? Can I do this work? What does the community look like if I were to start out doing this? So that's as a newer doula why I initially you know, reached out to try to network with other doulas. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:02:22]: It worked out really well for me. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:02:24]: That's great. Now, now on the flip side, now that you're the doula with the most experience in your area, when new doulas or people who are considering becoming doulas reach out, are there some things that make you feel abundance? Like, are there things that make you feel not so abundant? Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:02:47]: So I think the, probably the thing that I love about new doulas is how excited they are. I really do. And I never want to discourage them in any way, shape, or form. So I'm really trying to walk that line a little bit as a more experienced doula. They're like, oh, I'm so excited to work with, you know, this specific practice. And I'm like, have fun with that. Um, and that's not nice and I should, but I also want them to experience things themselves and try not influence that. Right. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:03:18]: Excuse me. Um, but, um, I think the thing that gives me the ick is I, as an agency owner, I have a lot of like people who want to be doulas reach out to me and they'll say, hey, I really want to become a doula and I will join your group. And I'm like, that's— oh, okay, we can talk about it. Sure, if that's what you think. Um, so it's like this assumption that I'm just immediately going to just Yeah, especially as an agency owner, like, oh, you want me as your boss and you're just telling me I'm going to hire you? Like, no, that's not really how that works. Um, so that's frustrating to me as, as an agency owner, as a more experienced doula. But I mean, I'm sure you have the same kind of situation where you are. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:04:03]: Yeah, I had someone reach out to me a couple of years ago via Facebook and they said, I am a pre-certified doula and I now need you to send me referrals. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:04:11]: What? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:04:12]: It's like, no, no hello, no, like, no intro, like nothing. It was just, it was, I, I was just like, hi, who are you? Where do you live? Like, you know, I mean, I, I tried to open a conversation with them and they were just, they were not having it, right? Um, and then they said, like, we, I mean, we did get into a little bit of a conversation and then I said, tell me a little bit about your training. And they said, oh, I haven't been to training yet. Okay, so where, you know, and, and then they said, oh, I looked at your training, it was too expensive, so I went some with an— and I was like, okay, like, that's fine, right? Like, hey, whatever. And but then, like, it, like— and this person, like, is in our area, and she wound up doing her training, she got certified, she came back, she said, hey, I'm certified now with this other group, I want you to, like, send me your people. That's not how referrals work. The funny thing was, like, I was doing in-person mentoring for my alumni, and she kept coming with this other person, and I finally had to say, like, you're not my— yeah, you're not my alumni. Like, the reason that mine cost, you know, literally $50 more at the time, right, cost $50 more than this other training was because I put a lot of effort into the after-training part. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:05:34]: Why don't you go? Like, to your original group and see what they offer. And, you know, she was fine with it, but it took her a little while to get over that. She was like, well, you didn't really want me. I was like, it wasn't that I didn't want you. It was that, you know, these people actually took my training and knew this was a part of it. And, and so I think understanding that part of it too, you know, don't, don't expect an established doula just to hand you their client list. Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:06:04]: Well, and I, I never— when a new doula comes on the scene, number one, I'm just excited. Like, awesome. Yeah, families are going to get served, right? That's great. There have been, you know, yay, people are going to do awesome and serve more people. And then there have been others where I'm like, and now I'm going to clean up your mess. And so I think part of the understanding of newer doulas, what they need to understand is we've been burned. So that's what makes us cautious as more experienced doulas. So I think that that can be really challenging. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:06:44]: And I, can I say again, like, I really do love new doulas. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:06:48]: I have a lot I can offer a new doula, and I think that it may not be what they're anticipating I can offer them. But one of the things that I have is the experience and longevity to know what it is that will really actually be beneficial that I can actually give them, right? I can't give you clients because that's not how clients work, right? But I can help you by bringing you along into relationships that I have built, right? If I'm doing meetings with the hospital, I will invite new doulas who are in the area, right? Hey, come with me and watch as we have this conversation about this policy. Or, um, hey, did you know that there's this group that meets that maybe they wouldn't have known about? The other thing is when I know that new doulas are available, that's great because I may need additional backup, or I may have people who contact me. I am booked 6 months out. And so if I have somebody who is, um, you know, if I have somebody who contacts me and their due date is 4 months from now, I'm booked. I need to have somebody to send them to. I want that person to still get a doula even though I'm not available. So if I don't know that the new doula exists, I can't send them that client. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:08:08]: Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:08:08]: But where do you think— so, I mean, we both know doulas who have more of a scarcity mindset, right? Or like, I mean, it's not just doulas. That's, I'm sure, across multiple professions. But where do you think that, that mindset comes from? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:08:25]: I don't know where it comes from, but I know that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. That when you feel like there's not enough people to go around and you start feeling like you're hoarding the clients, then you aren't building those relationships that wind up giving you clients. So for example, like, even if you and I were in the same city, right, it's easy to look at each other as competition. And I like to point out that, you know, Is the McDonald's across town really in competition with the McDonald's across the street from me? No, right? They're in different areas. There are, you know, now two McDonald's on the same side of the street, like right next door to each other. That might be a different question. But if you pull up to both McDonald's and one has a drive-through line that's really long and the other one doesn't, guess what? I'm probably going to go through the drive-through line that's shorter. Like there, there are these factors that might make you the right answer for someone where someone who looks very similar on paper may not be. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:09:31]: And it might come down to a specific experience they're looking for. Oh, you've worked with my provider before. Oh, you've had, you know, a spinning babies class or, you know, a VBAC, you know, VBAC experience. Oh, I do home births and you don't, right? As an example. So there are a lot of different things that may not— or guess what? We may not get along. The vibes may not be vibing. Yes. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:09:58]: Well, as we know, vibes are extremely important when it comes to your doula, especially. I always say when I'm doing intake calls, I'm like, I want you to be really excited to call your doula. Yeah. And if you're not feeling it, that's okay. I don't even get offended about any of that anymore. I'm just like, okay. Not the right doula for you. And that's good. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:10:21]: Yeah. Well, the thing is to have them make sure that they are with the right clients and helping them understand by— right. I want to be a good role model and show them that I don't have that scarcity mindset. Right. That I am open, but open may not look like what they anticipate. Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:10:44]: What, what have you seen it look like in practice when it comes to scarcity? So like, I know I've seen it. So in my area, right? Like, so like warning people about other Tula. Oh, don't call that Tula because, you know, they do XYZ or something like that. What have you seen in your area? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:11:06]: I've seen some people say things like that about me, which is really funny. Oh yeah. Um, which Makes me think twice about sending that person. So like when, when a potential client says, oh, I heard from so-and-so that you don't do X, Y, and Z. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:11:20]: Oh, and they will always tell us. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:11:21]: Oh yeah. Yeah. Um, right. Or, or just whatever. And then I try and have a conversation. I don't want to, maybe they misunderstood. Hey, hey, doula, I heard like that, you know, this was, oh yeah, no, I said that. Mm-hmm. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:11:35]: Hmm. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:11:35]: Okay. Can you tell me why? Um, but I think one of the things that I saw, and I'm gonna give you a childbirth educator example cuz this one stands out really clearly in my mind is that there was an established childbirth educator who was here. And, you know, one of the things that you do when you're teaching childbirth classes, you kind of look at the lay of the land. What night isn't covered, right, is a great place to start, right? If you look in your town and everybody's teaching on Tuesday, Thursday, guess what? Monday, Wednesday might be a great idea for you, right, as a newer doula to create some availability that maybe somebody else doesn't have. And A brand new childbirth educator comes to town and basically starts teaching 3 different classes 3 nights a week, including overlapping on one of the nights that the more experienced educator was teaching. Well, as a community mentor, right? She calls me up. Oh, Robin, like, ah, like I'm going to lose all of my classes. And I was just like, really? Like, where's your proof that you're going to lose anyone? Yeah. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:12:40]: You know, and even if somebody did say, oh, I could take this class here on Monday rather than the night that you're teaching, like, okay, you know, and I tried to point out to the established educator, right, this person's not going to be able to maintain 3 nights a week. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:13:00]: Oh yeah. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:13:00]: Like, that's— they're not going to fill their class. Like, I can tell you all the bad business things on the back end of why that strategy is not going to work. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:13:09]: Right. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:13:09]: Right. And in the long run, right. And that's what I said. And guess what? Guess who's still teaching? The established educator. Guess who's not, right? The newer one who was trying to teach 3 nights a week. Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:13:19]: I think that about when, when I think about doulas who are right out the gate, like, I'm going to take 8 births a month and 3 postpartum clients. And I'm like, okay, well, RIP your sleep schedule and stress levels because good luck. Yay. I'm glad. And sometimes you have to let people learn the hard way. And that's, that's, um, as a more established doula, that's, that's challenging. I think like, no, please don't. I want you to stick around. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:13:51]: But again, oh, there's your cat. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:13:55]: So one of the things that I want to think about though is like, what are mentoring relationships? Like when I say doula mentoring, what kind of things do you think about? Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:14:08]: So I do in our doula agency. So we do regular meetings as a group and we go over different topics. We actually, and again, this is within the agency, right? So we'll go over specific cases to talk about like, hey, what could we have done here? What actually happened and what could we have done differently, if anything? And what have we learned from this situation? That actually helps make all of us better, which I love. Um, and they all, um, so it's a much less— so it's somewhat formal but not entirely formal. I don't know, I think there are multiple different ways to mentor, right? So that formal versus very informal, you know, they, they know they can call me anytime if they have questions, um, which I love answering new doula questions on my team. Um, like, oh no, you go to the other door, it's 3 AM, you have to go in through the ER at that hospital, right? Um, I love being able to answer those questions, but of course there are more formalized mentorship opportunities. You just have to, you know, know what you're getting yourself into. If you're going to pay someone to mentor you, know what their expertise is and what you can expect out of that relationship. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:15:25]: I mean, that's for any service that you're going to pay for, right? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:15:30]: Yeah, there's group and individual, and I think one of the things that that I hear from more established doulas is that newer doulas may come to them and expect them to teach them everything they know and spend all this time helping them build their business. And there's no return for them. No monetary, no, right? No, like you are building your, like, doulas in your agency, right? Where, and so I think that there has to be this fine line. So if you're a new doula and you, you know, don't want to put money into mentoring, that is 100% fine. You can absolutely build your business without doing that. You're going to look for local groups that get together. You're going to listen and you're going to have like not one person who is doing like your mentoring. Now, maybe you wind up getting in a relationship with someone and you establish a friendship and there's some mentorship that goes along that way, or your backup or the person that you are a backup for, right? Maybe that happens, but then that again is a relationship. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:16:32]: But I think one of the things is that Some people want a lot of really specific detailed time and attention. And that is something that, you know, it is absolutely okay for an experienced doula to ask for compensation for their time. And that is something that there is that, that line, like there is a way to get that, you know, group mentorship and learning from other doulas in a way that is not formalized. And doesn't put the onus on any one doula. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:17:05]: Right, right, exactly. And I think it's just, it can, it gets challenging, um, for so many reasons, um, especially the business part. I think my favorite business advice that I ever got from my amazing mentor, who may or may not be on this call, um, was to focus on my business Right? So whenever I would start to slip into that scarcity mindset, like, oh, there's this new doula in town, and like, you know, I was just looking at what they were doing all the time and focus on, on my business and improving my processes, improving my client experience, and making sure people are getting the message of what we're doing no matter what they're doing over there. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:17:59]: Yeah, that, that's a good point. That comparison that you made. Well, I, I wasn't thinking about it right now, so, so it's fresh. But yeah, the comparison part, because it is so easy to say, is what they're doing better? And if what you're doing isn't working, it might be time to switch it up. But I think a lot of times people, particularly if they're newer, they don't give things enough go before they decide it's not working, or they make assumptions about their business. I hear all the time, I need to lower my prices. Why? You know, I'm not getting hired. How do you know it's about your prices? Like, show me your proof that you are not being hired because of your prices. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:18:42]: Has anybody said that to you? Right? Like, and they're like, no. And I'm like, okay. So I will actually say one of the most interesting things, and I do group mentoring in my, um, alumni group, as you know. And in the group mentoring, one of the things I always tell people is sometimes your prices are so low that people want to know what's wrong with you. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:19:03]: Right. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:19:04]: Right. Like, and so one of the things I will often tell people when they are not getting hired is I'll ask them about their price. And if it seems really low for that area, I'll say, actually, I want you to raise your price. And they're like, uh, Robin, I'm like, well, you're not getting hired now. Right. So if you raise your price and you don't get hired, are you any worse off? Right. But what if you raise your price and you actually get hired? You know, give it, give it a little bit of time, but try this, raise your price. And often they'll come back and be like, oh my gosh, like I got clients. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:19:39]: Like, right, right. Um, I think every time I like warn that I'm going to raise my price, I get clients who want to get in before the price increase as well. Um, that actually usually works pretty well. Um, but yeah, that's just Yeah, solid business advice. Um, I do think it's worth, um, talking about who typically gets excluded when it comes to that scarcity mindset. Um, I think it's not just newer doulas, right? It's easy to gloss everything over and say newer doulas, but I— we have to talk about the fact that, that class and race and other ways that we measure each other also come into effect here as well. Um, especially if talking about, um, yeah, certifications and those kinds of things, I think it, it needs— it bears discussing, or at least mentioning in the space when it comes to scarcity and who we're including in our spaces as well. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:20:42]: So, so when you say that, um, one of the things I think about, particularly where I live, is going to be rural doulas. And that's where you want to think about things like making making connections with other rural doulas in your area. And this is so regional that I often tell people, right, if you are in rural Tennessee, do not look to rural Oregon for solutions, right? Look in rural Kentucky and rural North Carolina, right? Look in your region. And this is where finding things like a statewide doula Facebook group, might be helpful to get that mentoring from other doulas in your area. And it is a way for that more established rural doula to help because again, right, having been that person, right, where I was the only doula for so many miles, like it was so helpful to find another doula just to have someone to talk to sometimes, right, someone who understood. But then also trying to figure out, you know, as we see more and more people talk about maternal mortality and the disparities in care and the congruence, right, of care, one of the things that we see is we see a lot of people coming to say, I want to help people who look like me. And that is all sorts of people, right? We had a conversation with someone yesterday talking about indigenous birth and how that was not being addressed in the data. And they trying to figure out how to do that. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:22:19]: So there are a lot of different communities. One of the things I try and say to everybody is you identify the communities in your area that need help, right? And if we were all identifying people in our area that needed that, like, I think we would get better coverage than trying to dictate here's what you need to look for. But who is not at the table? Who wasn't invited to the table? Who's at the table and not talking? And how can you make those connections? I may not always be the right mentor for someone, but that means I don't know who is, right? Like, I can make that connection. I like to be connected to people. And so I think that that's one of the things that sometimes— and sometimes it's a matter of— we've talked about burnout and overwhelm a lot here. And sometimes when you have that abundance mindset, it can be easier, I think, to get into burnout mode because you're trying to give back to everyone. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:23:18]: Yes, also think about capacity. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:23:20]: Yeah, that capacity. So being that connector can loosen that, and that can, that can help us cover, you know, race, class, like where you live, and like all of those pieces to make sure that we're connecting people who can help mentor each other in things that, you know, you know, not living in a rural community, I may not understand the same pressure as someone else. Who could I connect you to who is going to help you be able to figure out what that looks like? Right. I think about 30 miles. I'm like, oh, 30 miles. Or someone's like, have you even left the county? 30 miles? Like, that's nothing. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:24:00]: Like, that's— agreed. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:24:02]: That's the trip to the gas station, right? Like, that's not— Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:24:06]: so I think my mom has to drive a little further or a little shorter than that to get gas. But yeah, not a lot. I think Sorry, in my head I'm just like, can we also explain that to my policymakers where I live that I cannot just like take the day off and drive 5 hours round trip to go chat with them? Just a thought anyway, but that's, that's a whole other conversation we can have. Yeah, I think it also bears mentioning, you know, looking at other models as well. That's one of the benefits I think of some mentorship is thinking, you know, what will actually work. In your area and what will work for you as a doula. So, you know, I mentioned that I run an agency. One of the main reasons I started an agency, I kept seeing all these new doulas come in and then get overwhelmed and not be able to do all the things and just, you know, like walk away. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:25:06]: And I didn't like that. I don't— I mean, I need— we need more doulas. And so how could I help support the community in that way? While also being mindful of my own capacity. And I know we have friends who run collectives in multiple different states as well for that reason, right? To help support each other and figuring out those models that work that you have to do in community, that you have to do with other doulas. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:25:35]: Well, and understanding that there are different ways that different people need. So, for example, while I think it would be incredibly hard to work shift work as a doula, right? There are some volunteer programs, and that works really well for some people. People who want to do this work and maybe they're not sure, so they can try their hands at it. You know, I did some mentoring recently with somebody who is a health professional, and they, they don't want to quit their job, but they really wanted to finish the certification, do this work a little bit, give back to their community. But they have like really limited time, and we wound up having them talk to like one of the nurses on labor and delivery who's trying to get a doula program up and running. Now here's this practitioner who really wants to do this work. And so she basically said, hey, can you schedule me? And she's going in and working like one Saturday a month. Awesome. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:26:32]: Right? Like, she went the first Saturday, she went, helped someone with labor, didn't get to stay for the birth. Right? So she was like, I don't get to count that. But I still feel like I still feel like I made a difference and this person was happy with my care. And so we have to understand, right, that might not work for everyone. But it may work for some people. Or like, I know you at one point worked in a partnership where basically you all functioned as one doula. And like, all the times were covered, right? When you were working, they were on call. When they were working, you were on call. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:27:07]: And those are the kinds of things that sometimes a more experienced doula can say, tell me what your problem is and let me find some creative solutions for you because you may not have enough experience to know that here's this other thing that you can do. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:27:23]: Yeah. And I think that also, I mean, that very much mirrors, by the way, I, so we have this partnership, but it very much mirrors, you know, referral relationships as well, because there has to be that huge trust component in there, um, to have a partnership. And I've seen plenty of partnerships work really, really well. Um, and for long periods of time, short periods of time, whatever. Um, but even to just refer someone to to a provider of any service, but let alone another doula. There has to be this, this trust component. How do you see yourself developing some of those trust things that you need to say, hey, I don't know, you should go talk to my friend Lauren, for example, something like that. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:28:08]: So I think that trust comes with relationship, right? And showing up and, you know, as a new doula, like Show up to your community meetings, you know, the open meetings that you're welcome to. If there aren't any, there's nothing stopping you from starting one. Hey, I'm going to meet at the local coffee shop at 10 o'clock. I would love to talk to any doulas who show up. What, maybe no one shows up the first 2 times you do it, but keep doing it every 2, you know, every second Tuesday, I'm going to be at the local coffee shop to talk birth with any doulas. And eventually, right, you're going to build that, that time and space and have people that you can talk to. Those kinds of things work really well. We've got a couple doulas in my area who do that. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:28:53]: Unfortunately, they keep picking times I really am busy, but I know they're there and I love that. And I tell other people, oh hey, like, I am not available, but hey, here's this meeting on, you know, this date, go check this out. And that kind of thing can work really well. The other thing is what I want everyone to know is that every time anyone says the word doula, that's great. They're, they're talking about you, whether they're hiring you. Anytime somebody is talking about doulas, that makes it more likely that you will get hired the next time. And for newer doulas who are in areas where there aren't a lot of doulas, where there isn't a whole lot of competition, one of the interesting things is you really have to start with education because you can't get them to why should I hire a doula when they don't know what a doula is, right? That will create that, you know, the need. Why do you want to do it? Let me tell you why you want to do it, right? Here's what doulas do. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:29:51]: So that educational component honestly is easier to get in and talk about, right? When you're talking about being a new doula, if you go to a hospital and you're like, I would love to talk to the nurses about, you know, doula care, what is a doula, I want to do a library thing, Now I always say when you're in public and you're trying to teach about doulas, I don't know, particularly if you're in an area where people don't know what that is. I want you not to use the word doula, which is hilarious after what I just said. There's a method to my mindset here. What I want you to think about is if you're trying to teach people what doulas are and they may not know, or they may have a wrong definition. If you say, hey, local library, I'm teaching what is a doula. Someone's like, oh, I want an epidural. I don't need to go to that class. Someone's like, oh, I'm not having a home birth, like a doula, or what is a doula, right? I have no idea what that is anything about. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:30:44]: So all those people just didn't come to your class. And so if you do something like 5 ways to make labor easier, and you teach it from the standpoint of I'm a doula, here's what that is, and that's why I know these things. Oh, and by the way, one of the 5 things is a doula. Right? Then you've had more buy-in to come to the class. Right. And it can be things like have a peanut ball. Right. And then you bring a peanut ball and everyone's like, why is that person walking through the library with that thing? What is it? Right. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:31:14]: It's like the Pied Piper. Everyone's kind of following you. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:31:17]: Like, what is that yellow thing? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:31:19]: Yeah. So, you know, but that's the kind of thing that a newer doula can help you understand, like that little nuance. You might have that. I want to do a community meeting. But that experienced doula can say, let me tell you why you don't want to just go in and be like, what is a doula? Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:31:36]: Yeah, I think two things come to mind when you're saying that to me. Number one, I'm imagining our friends in Seattle, their faces when you say people don't know what a doula is, because that is not their reality. But so that's the first thing. But the second thing is, I think when I'm building trust with someone and I'm thinking about them as a doula that I want to refer to, I always think about the two superpowers that I need you to have as a doula are number one, communication. I need you to be very good at communication and keeping me in the loop, keeping everybody in the loop. Number two, I need you to show up. That is a huge thing for building trust, especially with a more established doula. Those two things alone are probably the big— the most lacking things that I see, um, in some newer doulas that I really, really wish, like, please keep working on those skills and developing them. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:32:37]: And not— not like I'm not without empathy, right? Been there. Um, and let's learn and grow and let's keep doing it. Let's— because I want you to be around, because we know that life cycle of a doula is so very short, and I'd love it to be longer. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:32:56]: Mentorship is something that will help you build your business faster, and it will help you in the longevity. Yeah. Ultimately, everyone needs a mentor, and you have to decide you're going to have multiple mentors over your life. I think sometimes we get this, I have a single mentor. And that is great, but is that really right? Is that really going to happen? So no, because you need different things. So for example, right, you've already said, like, I've done some mentoring with you, but when it comes to agency, I'm like, I don't know. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:33:37]: I do not ask. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:33:39]: Like, let me tell you, right? And I said, let me tell you who you can talk to. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:33:42]: You know, and I actually, and I love that about you. I love that you still have this abundance mindset even when it comes to you know, where I'm your favorite student ever. Just kidding. I don't think that's true, but it might be. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:33:58]: Please. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:33:58]: No, just teasing. Now I'm not going to say. Robin's like, I'm not answering that question. But I will say, but you still always have had that abundance mindset. And, you know, even when I'm like, hey, I was talking to this person and I learned this, you're always like, tell me about that. Like, what was that like? What did you learn? Anyway, yeah, it's, it's been great. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:34:23]: Let's keep it up. So how do you find a mentor? Let's talk a little bit about that. Number one, get out and get into your community and start seeing where the doulas are hanging out, right? Try not to put the onus on any one doula, right, to do anything for you or give you anything. If there are paid opportunities that come up, like, vet that person. Do they have what you need? There are a lot of things that are out there that look really shiny, but is it what you really need? Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:34:51]: Is it going to help? And please let it be a doula. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:34:54]: Oh, yes. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:34:55]: Can we also say that? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:34:56]: A doula with experience. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:34:59]: I'm so tired of non-doulas. For doulas by doulas. Like, if we learn nothing else, for doulas by doulas, please. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:35:08]: And that's not that we don't learn anything from other people, but there are certain things that we need to hear from other doulas. Doulas about. Yep. So yeah, absolutely. For doulas by doulas. Cool. Anything you would say on finding a mentor? Any tips you would have? Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:35:29]: I, I think again, what are you, what is your goal? Come with goals in mind. Like, what are you trying to learn? And so I, and sometimes that feels like you just walk in and you're like, I need to learn everything. Then I can't teach you everything, but I maybe can teach you 3 things. So let's talk about that. Let's, let's talk about and set out the goals in mind. I think that, that, yeah, other than please let it be a doula, you're asking about doula-specific things. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:36:02]: Well, and I just, I want to end on us thinking about, right, the, the doula world, our doula businesses individually and collectively are all made better when we share, right? We are not hoarding information or hoarding things. And reaching out and finding ways to have conversations with people, uh, and being in community with them and giving as much as you are receiving is the way to do that. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:36:33]: Reciprocity is always a good thing. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:36:38]: Agreed. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:36:38]: So, well, this was a fun way to talk about a not super fun topic. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:36:44]: So go out and send out referrals. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:36:48]: Basically, keep talking to other doulas and connecting. Take care. Bye, Robin.
