Episode 81: Navigating Sleep Disruption and Recovery for On-Call Doulas

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:02]:
Hey, Hillary.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:00:03]:
Hey, Robin.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:05]:
So I wanna talk to you about something today that often gets romanticized. Oh, and that is right for birth doulas, particularly like you get the call, it's 2:00 AM and you get up and you go to a birth. Like that is like the exciting part of the work we do.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:00:29]:
Sure.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:29]:
As someone who's been doing this a while, how do you feel about a 2 AM phone call?

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:00:34]:
Well, I mean, I'm glad they called. I've had clients who've tried to just text me. That does not go well.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:39]:
Well, that's in my contract that you will call me.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:00:44]:
Same, same, same. I will sleep through that all day. But yeah, how do I feel about it now?

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:51]:
Like the first time you got called in the middle of the night to go to a birth, like it's a brand new doula. Like, I know I was like, yes, it's time.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:00:58]:
It's time.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:01:00]:
It's 2 AM.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:01:01]:
I'm like, I really didn't want— and I usually get up and take a shower. I don't know what you do. Like, I get up and take a shower and I'm like, okay, let's go. So in the shower, I'm like trying to like psych myself up while I'm washing my hair.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:01:16]:
Well, and to be fair, it's not about us being excited for our client or anything like that. It's just, it's so hard to get up because I think we think about that 2 phone call, but we don't think about the following days, like how that disruption in our sleep schedule really changes everything.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:01:33]:
And look, I'm a woman in my late 40s. I already have enough trouble sleeping. So, so that part, I know it's going to take me a lot longer to recover because I'm older as well. And I don't— I love going to serve my clients. Just like you said, it's not about not about not being excited. It's about, okay, what it's going to take afterwards to recover.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:01:58]:
Well, and one of the things is that we have a lot of research now on sleep deprivation and what it does. And nowadays there's even a lot of research specifically about people who work shift work or people who work overnights. And when you look at the big list of all the things that can happen when you are sleep deprived, Right, like the, um, cognitive decline, right? I definitely feel a lot slower if I have not had enough sleep.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:02:32]:
Yeah, I would assume chronically higher cortisol levels as well.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:02:36]:
Chronically higher cortisol levels. And when you look at— and we'll put some of this in the show notes, absolutely— like when you look at it, right, you, um, like the health risks can go way up. So not just the cognitive impairment, but weight gain, diabetes, cardiovascular changes. So this can have a long-term impact on your health. If you are chronically not getting enough sleep. And that's something I think a lot of people don't think about when they think about, yay, I'm going to be a doula.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:03:09]:
Right. And I think that's also what even people who work shift work. Or on-call shifts get wrong about doulas a lot of times. The only, literally the only people I know who have similar situation are like home birth midwives. But the fact that we are on call for weeks at a time and not knowing when we're going to, like, it's that not knowing part when we're going to have to go in, right? That's the difference. So I think that, and that is a major contributor to this stress level. And yeah, then of course, some of the physiological consequences of that stress level.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:03:55]:
Well, and there are some things you can do. So for example, one of the things that is recommended in the evidence is protecting your circadian rhythm when you can. And so that can be simple things like the little light blocker apps on your phone and on a computer to reduce the amount of light that, that like interferes with your sleep. And on the other side, right, using the bright light therapy, whether it just be like open your windows and stare at the sun, you know, using bright lights or even like light therapy boxes. I actually just got a light therapy box this year.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:04:32]:
I love mine.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:04:33]:
So I have to remember to turn it on. Like, if you turn it on, but I try and turn it on and just sit there and work with it and, you know, like to try and train my body. Like, here is your circadian rhythm. This is when you're supposed to be sleeping and this is when you're supposed to be awake. It can be helpful. And then one of the things is, right, like I said, I have some tools on my phone to, you know, change the light shifting. And then you could also do that on your computer. And I had one on my computer a long time ago.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:05:08]:
And as the sun went down, right, it would, like if I were on my computer, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, right? It's like, I'd be like, ah, like, oh, okay, the sun went down. Like, what just happened?

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:05:18]:
Right?

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:05:18]:
Because my thought is, hey, hit the, hit the light bright button. Like, make it bright.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:05:23]:
It's like when you're in your Maps and you're driving and you're like, oh, the sun just went down because it changed color. But I also love that, and this is so indicative of the two of us, because your solution is always going to be technical. And mine is going to be like, get blackout curtains, which is maybe technology. We're going to argue. I'm not sure.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:05:47]:
Well, no, what I was going to say was the interesting thing is so combo to the light and the blackout. My husband is a blackout shade person. We did not have blackout shades in our bedroom, believe it or not. But blackout shades are a great idea if you're a doula. We have these weirdly shaped windows and it has like a window seat in our bedroom and we just had like a, just a Roman shade on it. And so, but I've been wanting to open the blinds more frequently, but literally, like, you have to teeter-totter on this thing. And, you know, my husband and I, we have poor balance as we get older, and I knew that one of us was going to die falling out this window trying to open the blinds because you have to pull it at a funky angle and it's stuck, right? Like, it was this whole thing. So last year for my birthday, um, I said I want to get one of those blinds that, that is like remote controlled.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:06:42]:
And so, um, it took 6 months to get it all figured out, even though we had it anyway. So it's finally up, January. My birthday's in June, but whatever. So we finally got this up, and when I ordered it, there was an option to do blackout. My husband's like, oh, please, please, please, let's do the blackout. And I was like, fine. So it gets really dark in our room now, and I do miss— like, I used to be able to look at the edges and say, oh, is the sun up now? I'm like, I don't know what time it is, right? So that's, that's a little freaky for me. But it does get really dark in our room now, which makes my husband insanely happy, and I can open my blinds, so, and shut them without any of us having to try and— I mean, like, our kids would be like, don't put your blinds down, we'll put them down for you.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:07:29]:
Like, so one of my kids would come in every night, do I need to put your blinds down? Um, so now I can just So combo tech with bright light in the day and darkness at night.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:07:40]:
I mean, I also— so other like low-tech things, right? I have, you know, an essential oil that I always put right here when I'm going to bed because it like triggers my body to remember it's time for sleep.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:07:52]:
Or even the little masks.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:07:54]:
Masks, yep. Um, or like the weighted ones, which I can't use when I hang out with you because it has lavender in it. And you're allergic. Um, I, um, yeah, so those kinds of— I got really into sleep hygiene. Like, I don't read in my bed. I get all of those things. So trying to like learn those kinds of lessons and translate that into my on-call life.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:08:20]:
Yeah, sleep hygiene is a big thing, and that is going to be one of the things that we want to think about. I always talk about in my, you know, dual reset, I always like what I do after a birth, right? I always think about like, what time am I getting home? Right? Should I— I think your tendency is to think, just go to bed. Like, I'm so exhausted. I've been up for 36 hours. And I always look at what time is it?

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:08:46]:
Yeah.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:08:47]:
Right. If it's 4:00, I'm going to try and stay awake to 7 or 8. Now, I for sure am laying on the couch eating. I am not like, I'm not like doing anything.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:08:58]:
Ordering dinner.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:08:59]:
Ordering dinner. I am like, not. Doing anything productive. Um, but that allows me to get in bed at a normal time and then sleep. And that I get reset faster that way. If I get home like, and it's like 10 AM, right? I don't want to sleep till 8 PM, wake up and then be like, well, hello, right? Because now my sleep is messed up for days. Whereas a good 2-hour nap and then a slow day and go to bed again at that 7 or 8 might be really helpful for me. So thinking about like what, what schedule works best that way can be.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:09:38]:
Yeah. And I think I really kind of think about it similarly as I similar to how I think about jet lag. Right. So I'm trying to get back to my normal time. So I'm going to make sure I get extra, extra sunshine and vitamin D if I can. I'm going to make sure if I can and not totally physically exhausted, I'm going to, you know, get some extra steps in to try to, you know, wear out my physical body a little bit more. And, you know, take a shower and bring my temperature down a couple hours before I go to bed, those kinds of things as well.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:10:12]:
So, yeah. And one of the interesting things is we tend to like to be warm and fuzzy when we're going to sleep, but we actually sleep better in the cool. So another piece of technology.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:10:24]:
I know what you're going to say because you love that thing.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:10:27]:
Oh, I do. I do. And also Takesha Smith loves this. So Takesha and I are both big fans of this. And that is the BedJet. So if you've seen the bear huggers in hospitals or the things that like in surgery or post-op that blow hot air, this will blow hot and/or cold air. Oh yes. Uh, over me.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:10:49]:
There's an app you can control the temperature.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:10:49]:
Yeah.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:10:49]:
And I've got a little setting where it like, I'm warm and snuggly and then it, as I fall asleep, like it cools itself down.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:10:56]:
And everyone should know I experienced this at Robin's house and she's still slightly appalled. I have not gone out and purchased one.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:11:04]:
Did you use the bed yet?

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:11:05]:
I did when I stayed.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:11:06]:
You like it?

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:11:07]:
I loved it when I was in the kitty NICU. It was a good time.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:11:13]:
People name their rooms very differently. Robin's extra bedroom is called the kitty NICU.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:11:19]:
Oh, sorry, I forgot that people don't all just know that about you, that you help, like, take care of, you know, poor little kittens.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:11:28]:
It just sounds really strange. Um, you know, one of the things that, um, I actually did a couple years ago, I actually really took my sleep hygiene very, very, very seriously. And, um, that was like my theme for the year, right? I was going to work on my sleep because it was so like years and years of this shift work had really— not even shift work, right?

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:11:47]:
Like this, like, I've seen your sleep report.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:11:50]:
Yeah, like my sleep report was bad. So I actually like saw a sleep doctor and they actually have like, there are sleep behavioral therapists. There are only a handful in the world, and one of them happens to live here. So I actually went to this psychologist who does nothing but sleep work, and I worked with them for a couple of months. I worked with the sleep doctor, and one of the things that I didn't want to do is I didn't want to take a bunch of sedatives. And so I went in and I said, hey, I want to do everything I can before we get to a medication, because I really want to fix the other things first.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:12:28]:
Also, I can't— well, you also can't take sedatives if you're on call, right?

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:12:32]:
You can't take sedatives if you're off call. Good point. Um, I didn't want to take sedatives for a lot of reasons. Maybe that was why. It's so long ago now, I don't even remember. But it was so helpful to learn all the little things that I was doing wrong, right? Like sitting in bed going, what do I have to do tomorrow?

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:12:48]:
Right? Oh my gosh, the taxes are due. I've got to get this to the accountant. I tell my husband that recently, like, please I do not want to talk about logistics before I go to sleep. Like, stop. I love you.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:13:02]:
Well, and so one of the things was if I would get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, like, my brain would be like, oh, we're awake, let's think about all the things we have to do. So training my brain not to think, which sounds really strange, but I would literally tell myself like nothing. And I would, I would just like, I would almost sing in my head Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. Tuck and get back in bed. And then I like if I was successful at not thinking about anything but nothing. And recently I read another one that I've tried a few times that is also helpful, particularly if you're doing that waking up part, is just like naming random things.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:13:38]:
Yeah.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:13:39]:
And I tried to overthink this because that's something I do very well. What?

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:13:44]:
I'm so shocked.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:13:46]:
Because one night I was doing it and I don't know why, but I thought spoon. And then I started going like fork, knife, like spatula. Like I started naming things in a drawer and I was like, am I thinking too hard about this? Then I realized I was thinking too hard about thinking about things. So as long as I'm not thinking too hard about thinking about things and literally naming random objects, that has also been helpful.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:14:06]:
Yeah. I think for me, having a really— I say this all the time, but a regular meditation practice and like having that practice of emptying my mind and just letting it be. I have a visualization that I do where I literally visualize my brain as a cave and there's a broom that's just sweeping away all of my thoughts. Like, nope, not right now.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:14:32]:
Well, believe it or not, these types of things that we've been talking about so far have a lot of evidence to support them too. And that, you know, we always want to look at the evidence. And one of the things that I think some people think that are really beneficial actually have moderate evidence. And one of the things that I recommended for years was like planned naps. Now I'm not anti-planned naps, but that's moderate, right? We only see that as being moderately recommended. So if you are working the shift work and you're on call, right, knowing, hey, I could grab 2 hours of sleep right now, particularly if you've got that person who's like, hey, I might be in labor, that might be a great day to plan a nap.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:15:13]:
Always at 7 PM.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:15:15]:
Right.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:15:15]:
Right.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:15:16]:
But whatever that looks like now, you've also, um, there's a name that people call this out of camp where you do the caffeine and then you try and take a short nap and wake up when the caffeine's peaking.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:15:27]:
Yeah. Uh, I mean, I, it's a caffeinated nap. I don't know what it is.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:15:31]:
Yeah. I mean, there, there's a name for it that people use, but right where you drink some caffeine, it takes about 45 minutes to get into your system. And so you like drink a cup of coffee and you lay down for you know, 30, 45 minutes. And then when you wake up, right, you get that boost. Um, but I would say the other thing that doulas can do is that caffeine can actually be a problem.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:15:54]:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:15:54]:
And the sludge that they make in hospitals, I mean, coffee, it is not good.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:16:02]:
But it's free, Robin.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:16:03]:
What do you—

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:16:04]:
absolutely free. Um, there's a reason.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:16:07]:
Well, and you wanna think about like, when are you doing that? If it's 1:00 AM and they're 4 centimeters, probably okay to do. If they're 9, right? You probably don't wanna drink that caffeine cuz it's got a 5 to 6 hour half-life.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:16:20]:
Well, or, or like it'll be peaking while you're trying, trying, or you have to pee in the middle of pushing.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:16:28]:
Yeah. But right. Water actually can wake you up too. Making sure you're well hydrated.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:16:36]:
Yeah.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:16:38]:
Yeah. I also find that cold water is a little more—

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:16:41]:
I love some good cold water. It's good. You brush your teeth, I know, as well to help wake you up. Yeah.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:16:49]:
Yeah, I do. I use a little fake toothbrush as my little wisps. The other thing that I sometimes do if I can't even get to my wisp is I have the little Listerine strips. It's like, it's just sort of a jolt because it's intense.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:17:10]:
Yeah. But I think it's, you know, we don't work in a vacuum. We don't live in a vacuum where it's just us. Right. Some doulas do. Sure. Where they just live by themselves. No pets, nothing.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:17:24]:
That's not my reality. I know that's also very much not your reality either. As you know, our pets often join us on the podcast, for example. So, you know, what does that family, like, partner piece look like for you, especially with regards to overnights?

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:17:44]:
Well, I think one of the things is I, my kids grew up with me being a doula, like it wasn't new. And so from an early age, it was, if I was taking that post-birth nap, right, it was like, don't wake mom up, don't wake mom up. So they sort of knew that. And my partner was pretty good at protecting that. And sometimes I would have half an ear awake and I would hear, don't wake your mother up. Do not knock on that door. Exactly. Right.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:18:16]:
But I hear that all the time.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:18:20]:
I think it's harder if you're just getting into the dual work and people, I think sitting down and saying, hey, here's what's going to happen. And sometimes this is if I'm asleep, here's what what we need to do. So helping people understand what does that mean? What does that look like? Who do you go for for help when you, you know, you know, when would be appropriate to wake me up? Because then there were times I'm like, why didn't you wake me up? And they're like, we like don't wake you up is the rule. So kind of thinking about what that looks like, I think would be important as well. But that does require a certain amount of partner buy-in and buy-in from other people in your family. You can't really control the pets. Trust me, I've tried, but definitely making sure that you do that. But then also, right, like, if you— I want you to think big picture that your life is also altered beyond that first 12 hours after a birth.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:19:11]:
So sometimes this means your friends and family, you're like, no, I really can't go out and do this thing we were going to do because I really need to get my sleep back on track. And that, you know, you have to balance. Is this going out? Maybe you go out for a shorter period of time or like, so sometimes there's a happy medium. But right, I can't emphasize enough how protecting your sleep is again going to help you be a better human and a better doula.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:19:41]:
And I think that's something I had to teach my friends as well because they're like, let's go out and hang out and play board games or whatever it is all night. And they are night owls. And I'm like, I can't be. I can't. I cannot. If I am on call, I will protect my sleep over almost anything. I will go to bed because I, you know, that idea that I could have to get up. And yeah, and that's challenging in a lot of ways with friends as well, especially.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:20:19]:
How do you know when your sleep is so bad that it's not sustainable anymore? And what do you do about that?

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:20:27]:
Yeah, I, I mean, I've tried a lot of things. Um, for me, it was about making sure I scheduled time off call. That was huge, making sure I was, you know, giving myself some kind of balance there, knowing that I could look forward to, you know, okay, I have these 2 weeks off call. Or whenever that is, right? So for, for me, it's, you know, protecting family vacation time, for example. Um, and that takes a lot of planning. But Robin knows this about me, that I was on call for 3 years straight with no— like, I had, you know, some pretty loose backup, but it— and I was like, Robin, please come trade some doulas.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:21:15]:
I'm like dying.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:21:15]:
And it's always, you know, and allowing myself to step back and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, if I'm going to keep doing this, I need to take care of me as well. I don't know.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:21:25]:
Well, you know, we have seen over and over again that when you take that, those regular breaks, like, it is so helpful. And I always tell people, right, every 3 months, you need at least 3 days off in a row. And being able to turn off your ringer, like it takes a day or two for you to still get over that.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:21:48]:
Like, right where you're waking up, like, is my ringer on?

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:21:52]:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Like, why didn't my phone go off?

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:21:56]:
Right.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:21:56]:
Like you get over that part, but it takes a little bit of time. And then at least, you know, once a year you want to take at least, you know, 1 or 2 weeks off in a row where you, and I think the first time I really experienced this and I told you this was like, I took a cruise for the first time a few years ago and literally, like, we're sailing away, and I'm like, nobody can get me, right? It was just like, even if they called me, I couldn't do anything about it. Like, I just felt this weight lift, and it was like, oh my gosh, like, this is so—

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:22:28]:
I literally was just talking about this with— I had breakfast with an OB on Saturday because we were both judging the speech meet, and, um, I— we were commiserating, and I said, you know, because my husband also works an on-call job, right? He's in IT, and people call him at all hours. And so our favorite thing to do is number one, leave the country, which is not possible for everybody, but oh my gosh, it's so great when you get the chance to. And she's like, yeah, and I don't even pay for the international plan. They can't call me at all. Maybe laugh. That's not— I would not be OK with that. But the other one is go to national parks where there is no cell service. Because you can actually decompress.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:23:15]:
Things to take off my vacation list. No, you're taking that off your vacation list.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:23:24]:
Not— you don't want to go to national parks?

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:23:26]:
Oh, I do want to go to national parks. I just don't want to be outside of cell service.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:23:34]:
Um, yeah, no, well, we have different ideas of excitement.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:23:39]:
Well, you know, one of the things is that I think a lot of doulas, a lot of birth doulas, they think that, you know, like, oh, the postpartum doulas have it better. And, you know, that can certainly be a strategy to switch your work, like take a postpartum training, be a postpartum doula where you're working during the day. It is a little more schedulable. Um, and certainly right at certain times in your life, that may be the right answer for you.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:24:05]:
Um, sure. But what I do both. Yeah. And I think the thing that people get wrong about that as an agency owner, I'm here to tell you, I don't get a lot of crossover. So I get people who want birth doula services or want postpartum doula services.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:24:21]:
I hard—

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:24:22]:
like really, and maybe that's just the market that I'm in, but we don't get people who want both. Um, and Yeah, so that's— it's really, it's literally changing your whole like business structure and how things work. So that's something to keep in mind. Yeah, that's something. And I love being— I really do love being able to schedule my life because I get— I feel like as a postpartum doula, it's much easier to have those boundaries around my work. I like that a lot, but it is vastly different, and I don't think it's the solution that people think it is as well. Not to mention, there are plenty of postpartum doulas that do overnight care. That's not something I do because it doesn't work for me.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:25:15]:
But, you know, there are doulas that do that. So it's, it's not the fix that people think it is. And Lord, it is so different. It's, it's— we could talk a lot about that.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:25:27]:
Well, and I, you know, I tried working as postpartum doula, right? I took the training. I did several years of trying to do a little bit of both. And for me, like, that just wasn't really where my heart was. Like, I, you know, I really felt more called to do the birth work. And so I eventually wound up dropping it, like, thinking at the time, like, it would be the answer, and it didn't wind up being the answer for me. And so, right, like, you could also try it, and if it doesn't work, like, you still have your birth work to fall back on. So if that's something you're thinking about, you know, I would say explore it. But also be open to the possibility that it's a, hmm, that was interesting, but not for me.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:26:07]:
I don't think it's necessarily one or the other.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:26:09]:
Yeah, agreed. And I think it's, it's, it's, I, I like being able to do both. Um, but that's not for everybody for sure. And I love, like, we, anyway, we could go really deep into, like, I love, we have really great community doula services that do both as well. Um, but, but yeah, it's not necessarily the, the like fix for lack of sleep or worry about being on call.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:26:33]:
Well, I really, one of the things that we talk about is how to build this work in a way that's sustainable. And if sleep is the part that is causing this to be unsustainable for you, it is unsustainable, period. So how are you going to fix that? How are you going to work on it? And before you just say, oh, I'm going to throw in the doula towel and not be a doula, right? Try some of the things that we've talked about here. We're going to have some information on our episode page, like look at that to see. Right. Have you tried some of these things? Because they really were game changers for me when I started really working on my sleep and that, and just that attention to it, like just looking at, like you probably have an app on your phone that monitors your sleep, whether you know it or not, like open it up and take a look at it. Sometimes I am surprised and understanding a little bit about your sleep schedule and what that looks like and what are some quick and easy things that you can do can always be helpful. So it is not a, you know, if you're going to be a doula, you don't get sleep.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:27:41]:
Oh no.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:27:42]:
Oh gosh.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:27:42]:
I know partnerships that work like that, right? Where one person's like, I love overnights, like, and then the other person's like, I do not. So they, they work like that, that 12-hour swing. Find what's going to be sustainable for you so you can keep doing this work.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:28:02]:
That is the bottom line. All right, well, thanks, Hillary.

Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:28:07]:
Yeah, I'll always talk about sleep with you, Robin.