Episode 86: What Happens After Five Years as a Doula

This transcript was auto generated from the recording. Speaker labels and timestamps are included. There may be small transcription errors.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
0:02
Hey, Hillary.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
0:03
Hey, Robin. How are you today?

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
0:06
Good.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
0:07
Yeah. I'm really excited to talk about. Yeah. For our topic today because it's not something that everybody gets to do as a doula. Like, can we start there? I think we have a problem as a profession that, that our life expectancy in this profession is three years.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
0:32
That sounds harsh.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
0:33
I know. Well, sorry, not life expectancy like the, like how long you should. You'll be staying in this profession. I think it's a bit. A bit longer for postpartum doulas, so I haven't seen the data, but for birth doulas especially, this job is challenging and so they don't get to the point of being a doula for five years or more. You've been at it. I'm. For a really long time.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
1:03
I did my first birth in the late 1980s.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
1:07
Okay. And I will not remind you how old I was then.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
1:11
I wasn't very old either.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
1:12
You were not.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
1:13
I was not a toddler, but I

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
1:15
was in the late 80s. I was not a toddler anymore.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
1:21
Like, but I was definitely still a child in my mind. Now. I was not a child in my mind at the time. Obviously I was a full fledged adult.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
1:29
But I mean, you have kids that age, so. And they are very much still kids. They're great. They're great. Yeah.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
1:40
So long term, like being in more than five years, like, you have also been a doula for over a decade. I have shifts, particularly around that five year mark.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
1:54
I. Well, I. There was a confidence shift for me. Number one, I felt like I had this realization like, oh, wait, I'm still doing this. And almost all the people that had either were established before me or who started around the same time as me aren't doing it anymore. So it made me a little more reflective. Like, what am I doing? How can I. And yeah, so I would say increased confidence and even more like being more reflective about what am I doing to make sure I can keep doing this work.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
2:32
What about you? Do you feel like there was a shift? It was a different time in the dual world.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
2:39
It was a different time in the dual world.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
2:41
And because I'm tight, for me, I

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
2:45
really, I really had to work to make it sustainable. Like, I had a thriving practice and I had a, you know, I had thriving practice, but it was a, you know, five state practice, which was not sustainable. Right.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
3:03
Where, you know, listen, because you don't. Well, I think context matters here because it's not like you live in, you know, Connecticut and it's a five state Practice, you know what I'm saying? Like, that is a very different prospect than living in Kentucky and working.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
3:18
I lived in Louisville, Kentucky, and I went up, like, past Indianapolis. I went to Cincinnati, Ohio. I went to, like, Huntington, West Virginia, Nashville, Tennessee, and St. Louis, Missouri.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
3:31
Right.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
3:32
And that was my radius. And I had no backup. I had, like, kids at some points. Right. Like, so I was doing a lot of traveling. I was doing a lot of, like, moving around, and it was. It was really hard. And so for me, the shift was I made the conscious effort to actually grow some doulas in my area.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
3:55
And I think sometimes when people are like, I have no backup, I'm like, I get you. Like, literally, I was the only doula in five states. Right. Or at least in that part of the five states I was in. And, you know, I, you know, I tell people now, like, if you really are, like, your first clients, look through your first 10 clients, any of them, like, would they be good doulas? Like, go to them and say, hey, would you be. Would you be interested in being a doula? I think you'd be amazing at this. Like, sometimes that personal ask can be really helpful. And you can be my backup.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
4:27
Right, Right. And I think some people get very competitive, and it's like, I like to tell people, like, I literally became a doula trainer so I could train people to compete against me, you know, But I didn't really look at it that way. I really looked at it, like, the more doulas we have. Because at the time, I would feel really guilty if I said no to somebody.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
4:49
Oh.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
4:50
Because it was hard to take off. Because it was like, but you're the only one here. Yeah, Right. Like, if you don't do my birth. And, you know, and then I knew what was waiting if I didn't do the birth. Right. So it was like, it was really hard. I mean, like, for context, the episiotomy rate was 98%.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
5:07
Nobody. Nobody got to hold their baby. Like, you literally had to, like, know the secret code words to be able to get to hold your baby for 20 minutes after birth, let alone a whole hour. And that 20 minutes was like a baby burrito. Right.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
5:20
Skin still, like, cheek to cheek.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
5:23
Yeah. So it's like, it was. It, you know, four hour mandatory nursery stays for healthy newborns, like, all these things, and it was just like, not, you know, it was not. I. I couldn't sustain this work and do that. So, you know, having, for me, that switch was building the doula workforce. Like, really, like, thinking about what could I do to. To build up some doulas here? And I did.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
5:54
So do you feel like you shifted, like, questions that you were asking your clients or, like, which clients you were taking as well?

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
6:07
Partially. There were people who, you know, as it started to be like what I call a checklist item. You know, like, there were people who'd show up to childbirth class because they wanted a certificate for their baby book.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
6:20
Oh, right, right, right, right.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
6:21
Like, and then it. So I kind of was like, like, why are you coming to childbirth class? You don't really care what I have to say. I'll give you a certificate. Like, just like, it doesn't do anything for you. So. But they wanted that certificate. So, you know, given the, you know, I felt like doulas for some people were just like, oh, it's just like,

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
6:42
that's what you do. You get a tool medulla.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
6:44
And so I really would. Started being pickier about my clients and that I would, you know, who needs me the most? Which. I know that's a little bit presumptive, but.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
6:56
No, but I think it's also knowing what different. Like, once you have some experience, you kind of know what different people are going to require of you. And like, I feel like after five years, I was pretty good at sussing out, like, okay, you're going to be very, very, like, have a lot of questions and very. Not. I'm not, I don't want to say needy, but also what you say.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
7:22
Time intensive.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
7:23
Yeah, time intensive. And, And. And sometimes I love those clients, right, because they're asking great questions and sometimes I just don't have the energy for that. And I think after some experience, you know, I. I felt more confident saying, no, thank you. Like, I don't think I'm the right doula for you. And making sure I have people I can refer people to. That was like, you were saying, like, so, so very important.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
7:52
Because again, I don't. I don't. I can't be the doula for everyone. I literally cannot.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
7:59
And it became easier to say no to, like, as I saw more births. Like, it was easier for me to be like, you've got realistic expectations and I to fix that for you.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
8:09
Right. And I can say, oh, you're working with that provider. I. Nope, I can't. I can't do that. No, like, your expectations do not match the provider that you have chosen. And I don't want to be the one who's there to witness all of that and work outside of my scope

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
8:29
or, like, who, Like, I Had people who wanted me to go to every prenatal with them.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
8:35
Yeah, I don't need to do that.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
8:39
So, you know, I think also if people had an unrealistic expectation of birth, like, there is no reason I would take an epidural ever. I sound like, yeah, right. I, I, you know, and I say this as somebody who gave birth to most of my children at home. Right. Like, like, I totally get it. But, but it's like, you know, there, there is a time and a place and a midwife actually taught me that. I remember a midwife telling me, like, I said I was asking him some version of like, who's your ideal client? What would make you say no to somebody like, other than, like, you know, risk out things. And she said, I won't take anybody who would say something like, they would never go to the hospital.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
9:25
I want a home birth client who. That if I say, let's go to the hospital, they're like, awesome, let's go.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
9:31
Right. If you think that's necessary, let's get it.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
9:34
Yeah. You know, like, okay. And so I really thought about that for a very long time. Like, I needed clients who were going to, you know, who, if you hired me for my expertise, that you were going to at least consider it. Like, not necessarily do everything I say.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
9:52
Like, I didn't know. I don't.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
9:54
But that you would. That I don't want somebody who, and if, if you've been a duel long enough, you've had a client who listened to nothing you said, right? And you would say, go left and they would go right. And they say, I really wanted to go left. I'm like, well, yeah, I did tell you to go left.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
10:11
And you, oh, I know you're not saying that.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
10:14
You're thinking to them, my brain. I'm like, yeah, we talked about that. No, I am not saying. But you know what I'm saying. They're like, why didn't somebody tell me? I'm like, me, me. I was. Remember that?

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
10:26
Can we check the transcript?

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
10:28
You don't say that, but it's just like you do. You get better at knowing who is going to pay attention. Like my sister. Shout out to my sister. She would listen to me, right? And, and so after a while, you know, it's like I told my sister, no, that's a whole separate story.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
10:44
But it's a whole separate but right.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
10:46
Like, you only get burned so many times, but right. That, that kind of thing is something that as a new jeweler, you're so excited that anybody would Say yes. That you're less concerning about that. I absolutely talk about finding the right client. You know, the vibes got to be vibing, as the kids say.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
11:05
But, yeah, I mean, and I've, of course, 100% been wrong about that before as well. Like, I think the vibes are going to be off. And then. But I'm like, okay, fine. And then I'm like, no, these people are amazing. I'm so glad I got to be here for. Yeah. I think, anyway, that that gets.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
11:27
Or like.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
11:28
And the other part is you don't really know how people are going to be under stress. And that's a birth. Can be a stressful situation. Same postpartum, very stressful situation. It can be. And so, you know, trying to feel out some of that and feel out what kind of handholding, what kind of, like, emotional navigation. Right. Like the first VBAC client I ever had.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
11:53
Like, how am I going to help? Because that is a very emotionally complex situation for a lot of people. So, like, how are we going to deal with that version? And then, of course, balancing out, like, how much information am I giving them? Because I, as, you know, have tendency to, like, vomit too much information at people. And, like, I think after five years, it's like, okay, no, I don't actually have to give them every. All of that information. They don't need it.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
12:23
Right. Well, and the other thing is, because my skills grew as a doula, I also was better at being able to help people who need more complexity. Right. And better understand what my capabilities were. Like, sometimes I would say no, because I just wasn't a good fit. Right. And that was to help you not to. It wasn't all about me.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
12:50
Right. There could be somebody that. The vibes were awesome, but I knew you'd be served better by somebody else. And then that would be selfish of me to say, no, I'm going to keep you as a client because. Right. So if I knew somebody would meet your needs better, I would at least offer. Right. Yeah.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
13:05
Have you interviewed with so and so. I'm really enjoying our conversation. But I also, like, I think you would just really, really get along with this person. Like, why don't you go talk to them? And if you are still, like, 100% Team Robin, come on back. But also, no harm, no foul, if you meet them and they're like, wow, Robin was right. I consider myself to be a really good connector. And so, you know, some of the doulas were like, do you just give all your clients away? I was like, No, I don't. But I do give a fair number away because I want you to be with the right person.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
13:36
And if this person has, like, some little thing that is going to be like, your thing, like, I want you to be with that person.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
13:44
Agreed. And I think, yeah, it just shifts. It really just shifts, like who you want to spend your time with, and that's okay. I. I don't know. I think one of the things I think after I. I had some experience under my belt was like, I didn't cry at the same point. You know, I'm still crying after every birth, but sometimes, you know, I used to cry, like, literally, like, while I'm like, holding someone's leg as a baby.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
14:18
Like, and that is not me anymore. Like, I. That some of that has shifted as well. I think partially because of what I've seen.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
14:32
It's like I'm so into what I'm doing at the moment that I don't feel that weight until I sit in the car.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
14:39
Oh, yeah.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
14:40
Well, I mean, I'm like, wow, like, I just got to go to a verse. Well, okay.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
14:45
So when I say what I've seen, I think you initially as a brand new birth doula, I was like, yeah, we got to 10 centimeters. And then you're like, oh, now I've been with someone who got to 10 centimeters and still needed to end up in the OR. Right.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
15:00
I remember that moment.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
15:01
The first time I realized that, oh, that's not. That's not the end goal. Right. Or.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
15:08
I.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
15:08
And then I used to get really excited like, oh, the baby's here.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
15:11
Yay.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
15:11
And I'm like, nope, nope, that's not the end of the story yet. We. We need to get to the end yet. Like, it's like, I don't allow myself to, like, you know, have any emotional release until, you know, I need to make sure one. It's like, now the room settled. Okay, now I can breathe again and be excited. But it's, you know, until you have that experience, you don't really. It just kind of shifts.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
15:38
Well, and sometimes you're looking around and you're like, hey, these doulas that I trained with, they're not working anymore. And I think that was like. And I trained with a group of doulas. Like, I trained with an organization that went defunct right away. When I trained with Donut, I also trained. I did the birth doula training and the train. The trainer training at the same time with Penny. And so even the trainers that I trained with, looking around and being like, oh, they're not a trainer anymore or know they're not even doing dual work.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
16:15
So it's just like, that was kind of eye openening to me. Like, did you. I don't know if you stayed in touch with anybody in your training?

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
16:25
In my cohort, I mean, like, tangentially, yes. There is one of them, I think, still dueling. She moved to. To one of the Carolinas. I can't remember which. But, yeah, other than that, no. And even some of them never do lid, which I was like, that shocked me. But I mean, it is what it is.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
16:48
Lovely humans that I got to hang out with also. It was so long ago. I'm, like, struggling to remember all of them. I can't remember. Like, that's okay.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
16:59
Calling you after seeing this and being like, Hillary.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
17:01
Yeah, right. I. But, yeah, no, you see people come in and out and like, okay. I mean, the. The hard truth of it is that birth doula work can be challenging, especially depending on your season of life. That's the big shift for me, has been, like, when I started out, my kids were preschool and kindergarten. And, you know, this year, I. I have a kid graduating from high school.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
17:27
So, like, it's. It's been a ride.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
17:31
Like, as they get older, parts get easier and other parts get harder. Yep, yep. So it's the trade off. It is very different in your different seasons of life, for sure. And, you know, you have to actually plan and prep for that if you want to make it work. And I think sometimes, you know, people take doula trainings for all sorts of reasons, and some people stumble into a job, right, as a doula. Like, they took the training because it sounded interesting, and they thought maybe they would go to their friend's birth, right? They just wanted to be the best person they could for this one birth. And they get bitten by the bug, right? Or they help one family postpartum, and they're like, all right, I could do this.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
18:15
And then they look back a year later and they're like, wow, I've served X number of families and maybe I should start thinking about, like, a business, right? Like, oh, taxes and, oh, like. And so if you kind of stumble into it, which, hey, yeah, me versus that was your intention. Like, you've got to change some things up as you go. And, you know, your business has to evolve, and you have to evolve. I'm absolutely not the same doula I was in the 1900s as I am today in 2026, but I am also not the same doula that I was in 2025. Yeah. And part of that has got to be intentional. Absolutely.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
19:08
I love to learn. So my brain automatically goes to like, what else could I do? I consider myself the queen of the ce. Right. Like, in terms of like, I know the Jenga, that is all the CE I need. But if you've listened to a doula who's practiced more than about five years, you're going to start hearing that they have this and this and this and this certification on top of whatever they do. And new doula is like, oh, wow, that is so right. And they're like, I want to do that. I'm like, let's do this first.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
19:40
Right. Crawl before you walk. So, yeah. What do you say about that?

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
19:46
I. I feel like, especially for new doulas, but even for doula experienced doulas, I feel like your money is better spent connecting like at an in person conference or like a retreat or something like that than like getting an additional certification. But that's. What'd you say?

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
20:09
Those dinners, like, the things that you learn sitting around the dinner table with some other duel.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
20:15
I feel like, and I see this all the time where people are like, I have X number of dollars to spend. What certification should I do? And it's like, okay, let's pump the brakes there a little bit. That, that was a lesson for me coming, like getting more mature in my doula practice. It's like, no, I, I actually need to connect with other doulas, even just locally. Like, I need to hear from my friends in Seattle how amazing birth is there. Because. Because then I can bring ideas back. Right.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
20:50
I need to connect with my, my friends in Europe to see like, how like, different working as a doula is there. And that really makes a huge difference for me and how I practice and like, and like revitalizes me, like to get excited about coming back and serving my clients. I think that that's again, not that learning new skills is a bad thing. I, I also want to learn skills, but, you know, temper it out a little bit. Like you're saying that you don't know

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
21:19
your area need, right? If people are coming to me and they're like, robin, what class should I take next? Like, what else should I do? I really love X. And I'm like, great. Do you have a need for X where you are? Like, if you're telling me I need to make a living, I want, you know, this is going to be something that I need to bring money in with. Tell me where the need is. Like, if you've got these two things and one is just, yay, this is really interesting and I want to do it, but there are 50 of them where I live. And this other thing, there are two.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
21:48
Right.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
21:49
Even though this might be the second choice, if money is where, if money is the driving factor, then but you're

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
21:58
all being like intentional and thinking like business, like, okay, I need to fill it anyways.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
22:04
Right. And sometimes like a training comes to town and it's aren't cheap because you don't have to travel and do all that. Like, that's like a class that you might have taken five years from now rather than now. Like those are going to be things that, you know, sometimes it's just a luck of the draw.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
22:19
And I'm also a person who gets frustrated because I'm like, I, but I want to learn to do that thing, but no one actually wants that thing where I am.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
22:28
What's that thing yet?

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
22:28
Yeah.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
22:29
And you know, I mean, could you make it work? Yes, but you're going to have to work harder to do it. And that's okay. Like, just go in wise eyes, eyes wide open, right? That, you know, I'm gonna have to put in the effort. And if you're doing something that's new in your area where there is no demand yet, you're gonna have to do a lot of education to create the demand. Whether that be doula work or whether that be lactation or whether that be any of the things like placenta. Like, I think some of that is gonna be, some of that's gonna be really helpful.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
23:00
I, I will say the, the Internet has been very helpful in that capacity. Like in as far as like people know what a doula is a lot more now than when I got started. That has been massively helpful. So thank you to all the doulas who continue to talk about, on social media about, about being a doula and the people who use doulas being like, yay, I love my doula or you know, maybe don't like, this doula was not my favorite or whatever it is. You know, I've been seeing a lot more of that recently, but it's just my algorithm, I'm sure so.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
23:39
Well, also I want you to think about like, why do people stay in this work?

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
23:45
It's not the money. This is the, that's the, the, the lie being sold out there, by the way.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
23:51
I, yeah, like, so why are you still here a decade later?

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
23:59
I am still here because I find this work valuable in so many ways and not to Say that I don't make money because. To make money at this job. But. Yeah. And that's also okay. I'm not, you know, my husband, my it. Professional husband does much better than I do, but. But I do it because it's.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
24:25
It's valuable to me and to my community. That to me is so very. I will continue to. And that. That's why I want to stay in this work. I. Yeah, I, you know, I'm sure you as well. Like, I've been offered other jobs without even trying.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
24:45
Like, have you thought about doing this? You'd be really good at that. And. Sure, I could do other things, but I think it's so important. Doula work is so very important. And I. Yeah, no, that's why I continue to do this job. And I found a way to make it sustainable. For me, that's the.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
25:08
At the end of the day, like, it has to be sustainable and I have to enjoy it. And I'm still, It's. I'm still enjoying it all this. This many years later. You too, Robin?

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
25:19
Yeah. And I, you know, for me, like, I. I really like working with families because while, you know, a lot of my work is at a system or policy level, when I look back and, you know, see all the changes, I'm like, I helped that. Like, I helped make that change. Like, every family now who goes to a hospital and gets to hold their baby immediately after birth, whether they have her dual or not, that's because of my clients fighting to be able to do that.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
25:56
Right.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
25:56
Everybody who takes a partner in the OR and doesn't have think twice about it, that's also my clients who did that. And so the things that today I'm like, ah, you know, why. Why are we doing this? Like, the things that I'm sort of banging my head about Today, you know, 10 years from now, we'll look back and go, wow, right?

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
26:15
I can't believe we had to fight for that. Yeah.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
26:16
Yeah. Like, really? That wasn't the. That wasn't just the norm. And so. Right. I think for me, like, knowing that now that I can look back and see there's so many things that. And we've got a long way to go. Please do not.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
26:36
Absolutely.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
26:37
But when you look at how far we've come, that piece of it really motivates me, and I try and share that with people because there were days that I would come home and just say to my husband, like, oh, my gosh. He's like, why do you keep doing this? And I'm like, somebody's got to do it, right?

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
26:58
It's important. Work is important work. So not to say that there hasn't been magical things that happened in a boardroom. Right? Like, that happens too. But I, I, I cannot duplicate, like, going, I was joking. We went to Costco Saturday because Costco on Saturday. Oh, my gosh. I was so mad at my husband for taking me.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
27:23
We, we ran into, like, five clients. And, like, that's amazing. And it reminds you, like, the impact that you're actually having in your community and seeing those kids grow up and, like, anyway, if that, it's magic and lovely and again, if I can keep doing it, I, as long as I can, can do it, I want to keep doing it. It makes. It feeds my soul a little bit, you know?

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
27:53
So let's talk about the dark side. What about compassion fatigue? How do you, how do you make sure it's feeding your soul and not sucking your soul?

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
28:02
Right. Compassionate is rough. So I think. And, and also, again, distinguishing between compassion fatigue and burnout as well. Right. So burnout is, is. It happens, and, like, you can kind of plan for it. Come.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
28:23
I don't feel, like, compassion fatigue. You can really plan for that. And that. That's really challenging. So, I mean, for me, I mean, there are dark sides, right? You do some. One of my daughter's friends actually said to me recently, she goes, I bet you've seen some stuff. And I was like, that is the understatement of the year. Congratulations.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
28:42
I have seen some stuff. So, I mean, for me, it's, it's boundaries to try to, like, stave off the compassion fatigue and making sure I'm taking care of myself, such as, like, taking time off. And so, and when I say boundaries, I mean, like, I. There are providers that I cannot. I cannot work with again. And not because maybe I saw them on their worst day. I mean, that's part of it. And I really do try to give so much grace, especially for providers, because I know, especially right now where I am, it's really, really hard.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
29:21
We're seeing a ton of obs leaving, and they're not being replaced, and it's really, really challenging to practice obstetrics where I am right now. So, so giving grace but also, like, having boundaries and saying, like, no, no, I. Okay, I can't do that. What does that look like? But, yeah, that time off and away from, you know, client facing, like, being in the room all of the time, that's challenging as a newer doula, because you want to be there. You want to see all the things. But the. And then you see some things.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
30:00
Knowing it's okay to sit down. Right. I've started telling people in training, never stand when you can sit.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
30:08
But. Right. Isn't that what you said? You said Penny used to say something similar to that. Right? No, maybe not. Okay.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
30:17
No. But I mean, I, I just. Right. It's like I've learned, like I used to think I have to be right there. I'd be in your face the whole time. Right.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
30:25
Or I have to go right away.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
30:27
Yeah. I could sit. I could sit on the couch and. And when you need me. Right. Like that. That is okay. And, and helping people know you don't need me.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
30:38
When you've had one contraction, you're right.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
30:40
When you're checking in and they haven't even given you side effect.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
30:43
And when you're a new birth, you're like, woohoo. Our new tool. Here we go. I want to go. Right. And you're calling your postpartum family all, hey, like, you know. Yeah. So I think, I think that the other thing is some of these births stick with me.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
30:58
It's not just a 9 to 5 job that I leave, you know, at the, like, their births. I still think about, you know, 20 plus years later, 30 plus years later, you know, questioning, did I do everything I could, you know, you know, did I say the right thing? Did I do the right thing? Like, this is, this is hard work

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
31:18
in that we're not perfect. I definitely have clients who were not happy. Like, that has happened in my doula life. Right. I mean, full transparency. Like there. I have had clients that, like, were disgruntled and I've, you know, had to deal with, you know, contracts back and forth and like, I mean, some of that wears on you. And then of course, that's.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
31:47
To me, those are the ones that I'm replaying in my head all the time. Like the clients who are upset because of whatever. Sometimes the outcome, but sometimes like the process and they just.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
31:59
Sometimes there's nothing we could have done. But sometimes it is.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
32:03
Sometimes you're the scapegoat.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
32:04
Yep. It's easier. You know, as a parent, I always think it's easier for my kid to be mad at me than to be mad at somebody. You write, insert somebody else.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
32:12
Very broad shoulders.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
32:14
Yeah. So I do realize that. But the other thing is that this is. It's really a lot less so now. But I remember feeling just like nobody got what I did. Nobody understood. I didn't have anybody to talk to. And it was just really lonely.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
32:33
And I think this goes back to your advice to, you know, get in the room with some other doulas. If you are a new doula in the area and there isn't like a doula brunch, like, call all the duels and be like, hey, let's all meet at this restaurant. Like, be the person who puts it out there. Sometimes people are just too busy to. To make the date. So think about what that might look like. But I think particularly as a new doula, find other people to talk to, whether that be on the Internet. I remember being really grateful for the Internet as it came into being because while I may not have had doulas in my five states, six states away, there was another jewel that I could talk to and we could say, ah, that moment where, you know, you're like, you know, whatever it was and be like, yeah.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
33:19
And they just got it. You didn't have to explain it to them.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
33:23
And I, I mean, initially I felt like I got that from the midwives in my area as well. They very much knew what a doula was and like scope and everything. That was really helpful to me, I think at this point. I don't know about you, but I mean, I'm very much. I know that you are very much the most experienced doula in your area. And so that can feel lonely occasionally. Do you feel that way?

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
33:53
It does less so now than it used to. Just because I have sort of made the decision to not let it be right. Sometimes that means I have to have a really good awareness of when do I walk away and let the new doulas talk amongst themselves. Because what happens when I come into the conversation is it changes it. And they all turn to me like, okay, tell what we need to know. And there's value in them talking. So when I learned I don't always have to walk away, but I don't always have to stay like, in kind of the wisdom to know, which is when that can be really helpful. And the other thing is, as I have poured into the other doulas in my area.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
34:36
Right.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
34:36
I have doulas. You've been doing this for a decade. Right. And the funny thing is I still think of them as new jewelers. Yeah.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
34:47
Thinking of me as a new doula.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
34:48
Yeah, I do, I do. Yeah. Everybody's new jeweler. Like, not really. I mean, I know, but it's like I was just. I. I was at my daughter's prom pictures this weekend, and her pediatrician's daughter was also in the group and her pediatrician's married to another pediatrician in the practice that we have. We had a chance to talk, and I've known him for a very long time, and we were just chatting, and I.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
35:12
I was saying something to them. We were talking about, like, being empty nesters or both getting ready to be empty nesters. And we were like. I was like, oh, what are you gonna do? And they were like, well, we still work these number of days a week. And. And I was just trying to, like, say, I love the practice that you've built. Like, I love the new doctors. Like, I did, you know, I always go to you.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
35:31
But then, like, I had to do this because, right. So. So I was like, so, you know, my child was sick, and. And we saw a new doctor every day because, like, we had to come in all the time. And I just want to say, like, I. You know, I'm really, like, I'm really. I'd never tried the new doctors, but I really, really like them. And I said, but this is going to sound really weird.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
35:51
And then I named a doctor who's like, the third oldest in the practice, and I was like, I still think that doctor is a new doctor. And they were like, really? And I was like, yeah, she wasn't there when you started, so she's a new doctor on my mind. They're like, oh, we're gonna have to tell her you said that. I was like, oh, okay. And then my daughter walked up and she was like, I didn't know they were married. And then the. The one. The.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
36:15
The male doctor was. He. He started telling this story about how somebody called him in the middle of the night because he was on call. His wife had seen the patient in the morning, and so he was like, oh, hold on. And they have different last names. He's like, let me ask. Doctor. So she's right here.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
36:32
And we were afraid that they thought we were hooking up and, like, just not the appropriate conversation for my. But so, long story short, sometimes you. You still feel like the. But if you are in that, right? If you are that person, right? If you are the Hillary, in this situation where you've got someone who has been around a lot longer, you may be in that weird, like, middle ground where you have people who are, like, been there longer, but then you have the other new people who are looking at you. What does that feel like for you? The sandwich generation?

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
37:07
Sorry, you say, like, I'm also in that. That. In that moment with my kids and parents as well. So I Mean, it's challenging. I love. So one of. So, you know, I trained to be a trainer recently, and one of my fellow trainees, Betsy Quilligan. Shout out, Betsy.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
37:31
We love her. But she said very much, like, it was like joining a sorority that you didn't know all the backstory to everything, and so you're just trying to catch up. So I feel like that with the older doulas and then with the newer doulas, I'm just like, y' all don't even know. I. You don't even know how good you have it. Some of it. And. And like, oh, God.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
37:58
Like, that's not that important. Like, I. I have a newer doula on my team who's always, like, looking at. At new doulas coming into the area, and she's, like, getting all worked up about it, and I'm like, okay, we'll see. We'll see. And she's like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, we'll see if they're still here. Let. Let's, like, let it play like that they get to do what they want to do.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
38:21
Like, I don't get bent out of shape about it anymore. Like, okay, cool. Are they serving people that we probably wouldn't serve?

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
38:32
I'm booked for, like, so far out now that it's like. Like, I'll do jewels all the time. I'm like, hey, don't worry about it. Like, there are going to be plenty of people. I. Nobody can hire me between now and 2027. Like, you're good.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
38:46
Listen, I just. We just had an inquiry for January, and it's. It's May, so, like, that's, you know, that's a good thing. It's a good. Yeah. So, you know, so being the sandwich. Frustrating. It's the world of that story, I think.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
39:04
But I. I think it's important to have, you know, doula friends and both sides of the Right. Because it keeps you, like, engaged in the. The stories of how we got here, and then the stories of, like, okay, what. What are we actually struggling with right now? Because I'm not struggling with those things anymore, but these newer doulas are. And so, like, okay, cool, let's. I'm happy to help, but, like, you. I.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
39:31
I'm still. I still, like, feel like I'm feeling out a little bit when to speak up and when to, like, step back, and that's okay. That takes some time to figure it out. So. And. And to. You have to figure out who your people are, by the way. In both of those camps.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
39:48
Because there are going to be people that, you know, you're like, oh, yeah, no, I definitely wouldn't do it. And that's okay. They get to do it how they want. And. Or like, oh, oh, that is a choice. And, you know, staying in my lane and all of that, I think is important. But I, I'm so glad that I get to keep doing this work. I'm gonna, I, I want to keep doing it and I want to help new doulas come in because we need more doulas, especially as the demand continues to increase.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
40:28
Well, and we need. I, I want to think about. We want to invest in the new jewelers the way maybe we wish somebody had invested in us.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
40:40
Exactly.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
40:40
And that helps us in the long run. And I really do. You know, I know it's, you know, it's an adage that people say, but a rising tide lifts all boats. Every time you talk about a doula, I am more likely to get hired and vice versa. And so I think one of the biggest things that I could say, like, if I were to give advice to somebody at that five year mark, is that understand that your practice is going to shift and grow. Like one of the big things that I learned to do probably around the five year mark work. But I hope doulas are learning sooner. Right.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
41:16
I know I was in a very different spot at five years, but learning to say no and not feel guilty about it.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
41:23
Yeah. You know, including to repeat clients.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
41:26
And to repeat clients if July is always booked off and they're due July 1st. Sorry.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
41:31
Yeah.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
41:32
If you have your baby at June 30th. Okay. But

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
41:37
after that, I'm off call. Yeah, I think that that has been really challenging for some of my repeats that I say no and I'm like. But then I, I like, I will literally always explain. I'll be like, listen, I always take this time off. I am not. I, I refuse to miss driving my first kid to college. Like, I'm not gonna miss that. There are.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
42:01
I have very hard boundaries, whereas as a new doula, I did not. So thanks for talking about being a doula for so long.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
42:13
Yeah, no, I love it for sure. And I would love to hear what our listeners think about this. So tell us, what did you love? What did you, what did you do differently at five years and all the things.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
42:27
Yeah. What do you want to hear from the old fogies?

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
42:32
What would you go back and tell your baby doula self? Me, just in general, but. Yeah, you can share.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
42:39
Oh, yeah. I mean? No, I would say, like, keep going, keep learning, keep growing. I. I always say keep learning. Like, that's my keep learning, keep growing.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
42:55
Other dual sooner.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
42:56
Yeah.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
42:59
And again, they don't have to be in your town. It doesn't have to be your backup, but find another doula that you can just be really honest with so that you do make it to the 3 year, 5 year, 10 year mark, if that's what you want. But know that your practice can grow and change, and that doesn't make it different, it just makes it different.

DR. HILLARY MELCHIORS
43:21
Thanks, Robin.

DR. ROBIN ELISE WEISS
43:22
Thanks, Hillary.