Hey, Hillary. Hi, Robin. So I want to talk about something today that is, we've talked a little bit around it, which is sort of the confidence piece of being a doula, because we've talked about how that can be really hard, particularly as a new doula, when you don't have a lot of experience. And that comes from a place of wanting to do well by your clients. But I want to go a little bit deeper today and I want to talk a little bit about other things behind it, which is, what if I make a mistake? What if I miss something? What if I do something wrong? Are there other ways that you see that come up, other things that people might say that kind of fall into this category?

Yeah, I think. What if I. No, I, I don't know. I think you covered it pretty well. Like what, what if I miss something? What if I've, if I do something wrong? I think this is especially true for birth doulas. The pressure is much harder for birth doulas, I think, than postpartum doulas, especially because for you get one chance, right? You get that one shot when it comes to birth, not so much as in your prenatal visits. Right. Like, you get to, you can follow up with people, but you don't get the chance to, you know, suggest something to your birth doula client in labor. Again.

Yeah. And when I have, you know, I have worked as a, I have trained and worked as a postpartum doula. And I do remember, like, I would go home and I'd be like, oh, hey. And I could call back and say, oh, you know, we talked about that thing. Or shoot them a quick little text message and say, oh, here's a link on that thing we talked about. So you're right. There is more of a time pressure. And so it's not, it's, I guess it's the difference between an open book take home test versus a proctored final. It's final week for me. So I'm going to put it in those terms, right. Where it's like timed. You, you get, you get what you get.

Yeah. And I, I don't have my phone right here because sometimes in training I will, as I'm trying to encourage people, say, you know, the cell phone wasn't invented when I was, when I was a brand new doula. Right. You literally can take everything you need to know with you in the palm of your hand. And if you have to go to the bathroom and like Google that. Right? Like you can do that. Right. You now know where to look, you know, what good information would look like. You know, I've given you handouts that are specific to, you know, here are the three main things that you need. But it's like there is still that. You've got to do it on the fly. And what do you do when it's one thing, when it's just you and your client. But then there's that added what if medical professionals are in the room. Right. And I think doulas also get that, you know, white coat, stethoscope, you know, whatever. Right. Scrubs, whatever object makes you kind of go, oh, maybe I need to mind my P's and q's and not say the wrong thing.

I do want to push back a little bit, grandma, and say that, that sometimes just because we. The cell phone does exist, it also, I think that adds a different kind of pressure. It's because you should have access to all the information and or know where it is that you should be able to find all of the answers like immediately and at your fingertips. So is this a different kind of pressure than like, well, but notice I said like, kind of. No. Like you hear the saved handouts I have. Like, I'm not. You could Google search. But you're also going to. Right? Like I always tell the alumni of my trainings, like go to the alumni group. Right. Because if nothing else, you've got us and we, you know, we frequently help people in situations like that. Right. Literally at labors.

Yeah. And I, I, you know, I mean I always jokingly say, like I live in the eastern time zone. I always love the fact that I have people on the Pacific coast. Right? Because I'm like, hey, like time zone, it is only midnight where you are and I feel safe texting you. But here I'm not texting any. The dualism. And in our, in my agency, that's one of the reasons we love our like group text is because it's like, hey, is someone up nursing a baby at 3am cuz my brain's not working anymore. Can you help me like think through what's going on and what I could do next? I think the goal of saying things like that is that you're not here alone. Right. It's not like the labor and delivery door shuts and that's it. Whatever you walked in with is what you have.

Yes. And I think the, the one thing I really like about working in thinking of us as part of the care team is then like we're collaborating with those nurses in the room. We're collaborating with the midwives or the doctors in the room so we can all put our heads together and help serve those people better. But that doesn't take away the fear.

No. And, you know, there's that. That being vulnerable. And I always try and talk about it as coming from a place of curiosity. Right. Maybe you've had one experience or a couple of experiences with something, and this looks very different than, like, the care that your client is getting looks very different than what you've seen. And rather than assume that everybody's doing it wrong because that's not the way it looked. Right. I always want to come from place. Hey, is there any reason we're not doing it this way or right. And privately and quietly. And the nurses are usually very generous and gracious. And, you know, I remember kind of thinking, my client asked for an epidural. They seem to be, like, slow. Very slow rolling it. Right. Like, what's going on here? Do we not have a pressure bag? Yeah. You know, I'm like, you know, why are they not doing it? And. And so I asked the nurse, I was like, hey, is there any reason, like, we're not calling anesthesia? And she was like, yeah, her platelets aren't back yet. And I'm like, oh, okay. That, like, yeah, all right, great. So now I'm not thinking, you know, it's medical racism or. Right. But it, you know, just, like, I had all these assumptions in my mind that were not right, and it was just as simple. The lab is backed up. We don't have the platelets back in 10 minutes later, they're like, okay, we're calling anesthesia. They'll be here in 10 minutes. I was like, oh, okay. But, you know, that asking rather than assuming, but it does take some vulnerability. And I think sometimes when we are shaky in our confidence, sometimes it's really hard to be that way. And we want our clients to have this faith in us, and so we don't want to appear vulnerable. We don't appear like we don't know what we're talking about sometimes.

Well, and I feel like also, the more experienced I am, the more questions I really asking myself and the team and like, oh, are we doing all the things? Okay, wait. But so sometimes that also can get in the way, I think, of being more confident. Maybe that's just. I know it's not. I, of course, struggle with imposter syndrome. Like most people, however it is, it's a little more.

You know, and it was funny because as you started talking I was like, oh, I think I probably know what's going to come out of her mouth about 90% of what I was thinking. Right. It's this. The more I know, the more I know. I don't know. Yeah, right. Where like when I was a brand new baby doula, right. Like, it was like, got this look at all this cool stuff. I know. And now I'm very humbled. I'm like, oh, I don't know. And I really don't want to learn a lesson today. Right. Because sometimes those lessons are not friendly. Yeah, right. For sure. And I don't mean like other people. I just mean sometimes life lessons are difficult.

Yeah. I mean for the doula side of things. Right. Like the, if I make a quote unquote mistake, like, it's pretty, it's. It's a much lower stake mistake than like if a nurse makes a mistake, for example, like I don't have a license on the line. I don't like. It's a little different feeling. And so I want to acknowledge like, like this is. Is a different thing. I think when I also think about missing something, I think missing a phone call.

Yeah. Or yeah. Just like giving people like an old link to information.

Well. And you know, not doing the right position at the right time or was there a better position? Or I think sometimes when we are actually putting our hands on someone to alleviate pain and discomfort or to help them in some way, there is that thought of oops, I put my hands on the wrong place. Oh, right, right. And it's like if you already have this hesitancy about touching a body and now you realize, I missed. You know, one of the things I always say is like, it's okay to readjust. Like, you didn't like. And you just say, oh, does this feel better? Right. You don't have to say, oh, I made a mistake. Right, right. You can say, oops, is this a better space for you to have your, you know, for us to put this on? So, you know, but it's like it's okay to do things the wrong way. Right. And we want to do always the right thing, the right time, the first time. But that's not the reality of life.

And I think sometimes people get, I think one of the things that I've seen. And again, not to play old timer here, but social media also wasn't invented. All right? Right. When nobody knew what doulas did, it was way easier. Right. Because it was like, yeah, doula does that. Right. Whereas I know I've seen a lot of stuff on social media this week about other people telling doulas what to do or, you know, saying, oh, doula did a good job. And you and I have had this discussion before, even here, that the only person who can tell me whether or not I'm really doing a good job is my client. Am I meeting their needs? And I really shouldn't care what other people think.

Right. I think also one of the things that you emphasize in my training, I assume everyone's training, but you emphasize, like, don't Monday morning quarterback other people's births. And I think that also goes for yourself. Right. You have to remember you cannot, like, hindsight. Right. You be. You did the best you could in the moment. And so not Monday morning quarterbacking, how your own performance as well, I think is really important.

And, you know, I have a tendency to, you know, ponder things a lot. And, you know that that's a challenge. And number one, there's a point of, like, it'll make you better to reflect. Right. And think, how can I do better? But you have to also be able to let it go.

Yeah, that was. I was gonna say, like, there is a point where you're looking at reflection, but reflection is very different than, oh, my gosh, here are 53 things I could have done. Right. Right. There's a reason you didn't do that at the time. Maybe you didn't know about it. Maybe it didn't seem to be the right thing at the right time. And it's easier when you've had some sleep to look back and think, could I have made that work? But at the time, you have to give yourself the, you know, you knew what you were in the room, you got the vibe. Right. You knew what to do. And the social media piece that I was going to talk about is really, we see a lot of, like, everybody does these fancy things, and sometimes I'll get asked about them in training. Right. Hey, why haven't we talked about this really weird position that I've only felt the need to use one time in over 1500 births? And I like to say, well, I'm giving you what I call the starter pack. Right? Right. These are the starter pack of positions. And it's like your starter Legos. You can do a lot of things with these, and you can quickly see, oh, look how I could change that if I move the leg this way. Now we call it a different position. Right. So it's like every. Like, is there a new position or do we just rename it because we moved the pinky toe a little bit to the right. Like, and. And I mean, and I'm not saying there aren't better ways to improve positions at all, but it's like some of these positions are so niche, right? Like, there's like, so very specific, so we could really use it. And it's like, is that the first thing you need to know? Right. We're going to start with our ABCs before we get to Automatopia, before we get to Walters.

Right. And Walters was exactly the one I was thinking about. Right. Well, Walter said. And the one that's been going around a lot now is Flying Cowgirl. Oh, yeah. I probably use it more. I definitely use it more than I use Walters. But. But it is still. It is not like in the top 10 of corrections that I use. And if you are worried about what, you know, like, learn the 10 most common that are going to hit 90% of what you do right. Before you focus on the 10% or the 1%. And so I think sometimes the overwhelm, I also try and remind people. Right. Stop comparing yourself to other doulas.

Go ahead. I was just gonna say, I think the. The new doula thing is also thinking that you have to do everything and. And if you don't know all the things and you can't do them, so you have to learn all the things so that you can do them. And it's like you can be a really effective doula by just knowing your ABCs anyway.

That and holding stand behind a curtain and take notes and not interact with people that changed the environment. So if you can do more than that, literal things I say in doula training, like, if you can do more than stand behind a curtain, take notes and don't interact with people, like, that is a very low bar. But the pressure is real. You know, how many studies do we have that say just bringing somebody with you to a doctor's appointment or having visitors changes the outcome and showing up is 80% of the battle.

Oh, we should. We can talk about that another time. But yes, that. That must be one of your superpowers if you're going to be a doula that you have to show up. And. And to me, the, again, the fear of missing something. Like, I've had clients who forget that. I've told them 18 times that they have to call, call, call, and you know, that the phantom phone rings that I'm hearing and I, I'm so mortified that they're gonna, you know, text me and not call me. And like, I'm not waking up to a text. You know, I make them sign in my contract. Yeah, I taught you. And, and they still. Yeah, no, I know, but at least I know it's like, you knew better. And I chose it not to follow this, but you knew better. I've repeated it multiple times in every prenatal visit. Like, I'm like, repeat after me, I'm going to call.

Yeah. And I mean, again, it again, that's a stressful situation for them who like their anyway, you know, and, and I think also the longer a doula, you know, those kinds of things happen. And so it's like I didn't even know I should be worried about that. It's a new doula. So you, your worries change.

And, and one of the things I want to say is, right, as a new, as an experienced doula, I also know that I don't know everything. And I like that collaboration, that reaching out, consulting other people, talking to people, both other doulas and other medical professionals, right. I have over the course of my career, cultivated friendships with labor and delivery nurses, midwives, right, physicians. And there are times where I will text any or all of them and say, hey, riddle me this, right? So Kathryn Konrad, who we've had on here a couple of times, right, she is one of those labor and delivery nurse friends that I have. And I remember something came up once about catheterization. And I had just always been taught, like when you have an epidural, you do an indwelling cath to lower the rate of, you know, infection. Like, yes, induced infections. And so I said to her, I said, hey, somebody just said that they do in out caths. Like, ah. She was like, oh, yeah. And she was like, that's what we do. And I was like, she's like, and we do them for the same reason. So she and I started looking at it and basically the literature is 50, 50. And so when you ask like you, you seem to have that. When I said we do indwelling cath with epidurals, like, do you all do it differently? I used to only see indwelling and then it became in out. And so now I like hardly ever see indwelling. So when I do see it, I'm like, oh, that's different. So you know, it's just like one of those things that is like when, when you get used to doing things a certain way, like where you are and you start asking around, like you realize, oh, like my whole point with this is that it both are fine. Like it's like, what does your client want? Is a great place to start. But it's like, is there a reason that we're doing it this way? And we assume that we're doing it the right way, but we see that, we see that data shift, right? And we see things change over the course of our of. Anyway, I want to get back to like, being afraid of so what I think that is a part of it. That's why I brought up, like, knowing when to get that consult and understanding, right? That, like, I would have been afraid if somebody came in and said, we're going to do in out caths, right? Because I would think, oh my gosh, my client is in danger. And, you know, so in seeking that consultation, in talking to other people, like, we came to this realization that, oh, different people do things differently. And that goes back to your point about curiosity as well, remaining curious and keep asking questions.

And yeah, there, sometimes there are lots of right ways to do things.

And yeah, I think that's important. And I think there's also a difference between, like, healthy vigilance and fear. Right? And it's okay to mind your p's and q's and like, make sure, like, checking in or am I doing the right thing? Right. Find a question to ask yourself to kind of reorient where you are, kind of center. Are you in that space that says, am I doing all the things I could be doing right now? Is this the right thing at the right time for the right reason? Right. And just because something is a great tool in labor doesn't mean it's the right tool for this person or this time or right? Like squatting. I almost hate squatting because, yes, I, I almost hate the position squatting. Like, quote me, it totally fine. Happy, happy to have that done. But I'd love to hear it. So because it gets misused, people, the only part they hear is squatting is a great position. And if you're squatting at the wrong time, you're actually hindering your progress. Right? And so it's not that squatting is a great position. It's that when your baby is at this point and you were at this point, this might be the best position for you. It's not that squatting is the end all be all right? And like, how many people do I see with a negative 2 baby trying to squat? I'm like closing your pelvic, right? I always want to, like, honor the fact that they know their body and, you know, and so, you know, I wait for the end of the contraction. And so I see you're choosing squatting. Can you tell me a little bit about why you're choosing this position? And they are. They are, like, early enough in labor that they can have that kind of conversation with you. Right, right, right. And if they said overwhelming urge to squat, I'd be like, okay, well, give it a cup. Maybe. Maybe you're getting ready to be one of those people who goes 2 to 10. Right. In 20 minutes, and you. You feel something I can't see. And in a couple minutes, if you don't look like that, I'm going to say, would you be open to maybe trying another position? Because I surge. Right. Like, and then I'm going to tell you why I think. Think this is a great position, but maybe not right now. And that it, like, So I think almost like squatting is a very basic position. It is in the starter pack, but it's like, knowing that difference is more important than knowing 53 other things.

So true. It's so true. So, Robin, do you see how do you differentiate between, like, connecting with other doulas to, like, debrief versus, like, venting?

I think both are important. I was gonna say. Oh, do I have to choose? I think you have to vent before you can get to the debrief.

Yeah. Right. The venting is about the emotions that. That you have that you may not always be able to express in the room and, you know, like, your concentric circles with grief. I feel like venting works the same way. I can't vent in. I have to vent out. Right. And right. Like, Hillary, you are that ring behind me, right. Where I'm not venting to my clients. Right. I'm not gonna vent to my client about that. And so. And, you know, obviously minding all the confidentiality, but being like, you know, I was at a birth and this thing happened and, like, being vague about it, but just, like, I was so frustrated that. That my client wasn't being heard. Right. Like, or whatever it is. And then I can get to the. Okay, well, let's, you know, maybe you or whoever I'm talking to ask me questions to help me get down to the. Oh, okay. I didn't see that going on. Like, I was too tired. I was busy with this other thing. Right. I've been doing counter pressure. And so, like, all the reasons. And so sometimes. Sometimes seeing it from a different perspective can be really helpful.

So I do think both are important. But I think that I think we get stuck in the venting because that, like, you get that validation. Sure. Right. From another doula. Oh, my gosh, that's so awful. I can't believe that happened to you. Right? Yeah, yeah, right. It start. Feels. Feels very righteous where it's a little bit harder to move into that debrief. And you know, in medicine, they have morbidity and mortality. Right. Where they bring cases, they all talk about them. And I really wish doulas could do a better job of doing almost organized things like that. And there are some doulas who do that. There are some agencies or somebody do that first circles. But I think there are a lot. They're probably a lot more individual doulas out there who don't feel like they have anybody that they can do a good debrief.

And when you're doing a debrief with someone, when you're on that outer circle. Right. You always want to remember your active listening. And, you know, I will say, like, in doula office hours, I will often say, like, are you open to some questions? Right. Are you open to another opinion? Right, right. And sometimes they're like, no, not right now. I'm like, okay. And then they come back a week later and they're like, okay, I'm ready. I'm like, awesome. Right here. Here are some you might also want to think about. So as long as we are also remembering to use our doula skills. Right. With the other doulas, as they are, are debriefing because it's a very vulnerable moment and it can be a point for growth.

And I learn things from doulas who are brand new all the time. So I don't want you to think that if you're a newer doula, you have nothing to offer someone because you have a really crisp, clear perspective that I don't have.

Yeah. I. And some, by the way, it's even about business sometimes, like 100. I want to like the Reese Snyder made me think about things very differently. And I love talking to her about stuff because, like, I love her perspectives that shout out to a newer doula who I have learned things from. But I think that that because they're bringing that different perspective, because they are just thinking about approaching the work differently. That's all.

Well, and one of the interesting things I think about doulas is there are doulas who enter this field for so many reasons and via so many pathways. And there are doulas who've had children, doulas who haven't had children. There are, you know, people who come from a very business perspective. Right. Like, I always talk about the fact that I was drawn to this because of the physics, the chemistry, the biology. Right. I was just like, oh, the human body is fascinating. Look at all these things. And people would literally look at me like, that's not why I got into. Yeah, right. Exciting. So why did you get into this? Like, what was your. What was your. Why? Yeah, it was like supporting people and helping people have a better experience. That literally, period.

And we have people who are doing this, like, for birth justice, right. To combat medical racism. Right. There are so many different reasons to come in here, and there are no wrong reasons. Right. But that helps. Gives us a given, gives us a different perspective. I jokingly say I had to learn how to be nice to people. Right? Because I was like, oh, look at the pelvis. Look at the physics of this. Right. I was like, oh, hi. Right. The owner of the pelvis. It is nice to meet you.

Okay. You just made the medical anthropologist in me, like, cringe really hard. I'm admitting. But I'm admitting, like. And that's why I learned from other people. I mean, it wasn't really that bad, but, you know, it was just that curiosity of, wow, like, why doesn't everybody talk about this? Because this is so cool. Whereas you listen to other doulas. And that's where we all have different types of clients. We all. Right. That's why we're all needed. There's not one right reason. There's not one right way to do it.

And I think when we're talking about, you know, when we're talking about that fear of making a mistake, that when we are remembering that we were hired by that person because they chose us, and whatever reason they chose us, they chose us. Yeah. And that's number one. And their perspective is the most important.

Correct. And centering what they need. Right? So whether you feel like you made a mistake or not, if, like, the. The client, like, keeping that client, like, helping them have a good experience and helping them get what they needed in the moment, that is the primacy of our job. And so it's okay, cool. Learn from, you know, quote, unquote, mistakes that you may have made.

Well, and it's like, if I offer you the physiologically optimal position or what's going on at that moment, and you're like, no, literally, I was just like, how many clients have you been like, okay, I think we should try this. And they're just like, I'm not moving. Right. Like, you know, I think sometimes some doulas would think I should I've pushed it. Should I have? Like, you know, and it's like, that is like honoring what your client wants, even if it's not right, even if it may not be in their own best interest. Like, there's something else going on that does make it in their best interest that I don't see, because I am not them. And that. That, like. Like, it's not our job to strong arm somebody into doing experts.

Sorry, I'm just imagining trying to, like, force someone like that. No. Then you're part of. That's like, literally obstetric violence. Like, don't do that. Are there times that I'm like, would you reconsider? Like, would you like green eggs and ham? Would you like them, Sam? I am, right. Like, I feel like, would you like them here? Would you like them there? Would you like them anywhere? And they're like, no. I'm like, all right. I asked in a box with the fox, please. Thank you.

Right. Dr. Seuss's guide to doulas.

There we go. I like it. And. Yeah. And finding that group of doulas that you can debrief with that are going to reassure you about mistakes you think you may have made and how you can maybe do better in the future or even just. Just so you can vent. I think that that is so very important. And I'm. I'm glad that I have that both locally and, you know, doula office hours are really great. And I do. I do. I do enjoy calling our friends that are on the West Coast Robin. So that. Because they. They are always like, what the. That's crazy. Not only is it the time difference, but they're like, except mark Twain, like, 10 years. If you want to go back in time, like, go to Kentucky.

The thing I want to. Like, if we would end on any note, I would just like to say, like. Like, that fear that you feel, that vulnerability is a gift that shows that you care. Right. It. So it's not to get rid of it. Maybe you change it up a little bit and think of it more as that curiosity. But it. Right. It is. It is what keeps you sharp in the moment. You know, the. I'm trying to do the right thing. And that is something that you don't actually want to lose.

Yep. So don't be afraid of that. Don't be afraid of that fear or that vulnerability. However you're. You know. And that reframe for me was really helpful. I'm being curious about this. I'm learning. It's that. That growth mindset set that we have. I am still learning to this day.

That's what I was going to say. It's still learning a lot. All of the time. And changing. What? I think I already know, too. That's okay. It's good. It's important. And, yeah, I care a lot.

As you should. Our clients appreciate that. That's why they hire us. I think so.

Thanks, Hillary.

Thank you, Robin.