Episode 79: Getting Hired as a Doula

Note: This transcript is auto-generated and may contain minor errors. Please refer to the audio for precise language, especially around clinical terms and data. And yes, sometimes “doula” gets interpreted… creatively.

Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:03]:
Hi, Robin. Hey, Hillary. It's good to see you today. Hey. So I'm excited because this is, as a doula trainer, something I spend a lot of time talking about, which is how do you find your first 3 clients?Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:00:19]:
I feel like everyone asks that in doula training, and sometimes you have me come on for a panel and it's literally, you fend off that question before it even gets asked.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:30]:
Well, I know that it's, you know, you have a love for this work. You have a passion, whether you're doing birth or postpartum or childbirth ed or whatever. Right. And the number 3 is specific to people who are training as birth and postpartum doulas because that's the number they need to move on to their certification. But whether that is true or not for you, that first 3 clients, like, that is going to be a really big deal. That sort of sets the tone for your practice. It gives you that confidence that you can find clients, and those are, uh, those are huge boosters for you and your business. Right.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:01:08]:
Agreed. And it's really that, like, that bridge between training and actual practice. Like, it's kind of— it's the introduction. It's kind— and I like to think of it as the ending of your training, really. I mean, it's the practical part of it, right?Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:01:23]:
A pet practicum. Well, and the interesting thing is so many people do this work because they've got big hearts. They want to help people have better birth, better postpartum experience, and the business aspects are often forgotten. Now, I am seeing, I am seeing a shift. I am seeing more people come in very business-minded, or at least open or asking the questions like, hey, do I need an LLC to do this? And, and right, I always tell people like, Hang tight, we're going to get there. You know, it makes it difficult because, you know, 50 different states in the US alone, 50 different policies. But we do help people. But the getting those 3 clients is going to be the piece that, that requires some business skill that people don't think about.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:02:07]:
They think that— and I know they don't really believe this, but they think that, like, I'm going to take the training and clients are just going to happen. They're going to fall in my lap. I'm going to hang out my shingle, my proverbial shingle, and right? The, the clients will find me. And I mean, we do have—Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:02:23]:
to be fair, we do have a friend who tells that story pretty regularly, right? Who says, I just posted my finished certificate online and magically someone reached out to me. It's like, maybe.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:02:34]:
But that is actually hanging your shingle, because I will tell you, I don't think a lot of people actually hang their shingle like they think they do.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:02:42]:
Oh, that part, right? Well, that's something you and I talk about a lot. It's like, just because you whisper it one time online doesn't mean that everyone has heard it, and that's okay. We're busy people.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:02:55]:
Yeah, we like to complain about the algorithm not showing us things. So if you get really excited and you go post it Sunday night after training is over, who's online on Sunday night? That's who might have a chance to see it, right? They already have to follow you. And so I talk about, you know, I talk about the fact you have to say it multiple times. You have to say it. You know, people will say, oh, well, why would I tell so-and-so? They're not my ideal client. We have someone in my alumni group. Dr. Abby Jorgensen, who talks about the fact that her first 10 births, 8 people were referrals from a specific person that she had just told that she was taking this doula training.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:03:37]:
And that person was like, hey, did you hear Abby was a doula? Right? And so that is, you know, that is something that was helpful. She found that champion who is out there, like rooting for her. And if she hadn't told that one person who was not not her ideal client, she would have missed out on 80% of those first 10 clients, right? So that's why I always say tell everyone. And the problem there is people feel like it's salesy. Hmm, I don't feel like it's salesy.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:04:11]:
Okay, so I never was like, it's salesy to tell people that I'm studying to be an anthropologist, right? That's not salesy. Um, and you know, I'm not like, uh, my brother is super salesy because he keeps talking about being an electrician. Like, No, no, no, he's not. I'm going to have to use—Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:04:29]:
just knowing someone's an electrician doesn't mean they're trying to sell you like their electrical package.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:04:34]:
Exactly. And, you know, I think there is a line, right? Of course, which, you know, we always talk about, you know, approaching people at the store who you think are pregnant. Like, that's— there's a discussion to be had there as well. But finding those first 3 clients, I think continually talking— so, Robin, How did you find your first 3 clients? I'm not sure I've ever asked you that question because I am not a good person to ask because I really stumbled hard into this work.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:05:11]:
And I accidentally went to a birth, and that's a whole story in and of itself. I'm not going to tell here. I've told it before, but I stumbled into a birth.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:05:23]:
Yeah.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:05:23]:
You know, like I make it sound like it's super simple. Like, oops, I just went to his birth. That was not a 4-day-long birth that I accidentally went to. But after that, like, I just became so curious about birth, right? As many people do, right? Something sparks their passion, whether it's watching someone else give birth, giving birth themselves, looking at news on TV, right? Like, whatever is motivating. And one of the things that I always point out is like, I became a doula in the 1900s. Right. There was. So, so I, you know, there was no social media, there were no cell phones.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:06:02]:
And the point I want to make here is that I couldn't just Google it or, you know, I couldn't.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:06:09]:
Well, there was no Facebook. There was no—Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:06:11]:
there was not like I couldn't get online. There was no Yahoo, nothing like the internet was not really a thing at this point.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:06:17]:
You had to take a horse and buggy to the library.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:06:22]:
But even the library didn't have a lot of books.. And so I wound up becoming a childbirth educator just to sort of answer my own questions. And I love education. So that was like the perfect route for me. Like, I love to learn. So it made, it made sense for me. I was like, oh, okay, I'll become a childbirth educator. So I started teaching classes and guess what? People want support.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:06:43]:
And so I found my first 3 clients by being a childbirth educator and talking about the value of support. I didn't even know the word doula at that point. In fact, I hadn't heard the word doula until I'd been to 70 births. So, you know, it, it's— yeah, so it was a little bit different for me in that. But I will talk about how after I got out of the military, moved to a new city, right, and have to restart my business, right, because I don't have repeat clients, I don't have the connections that I'd made with all the people in that city. So that's probably the closest I have. And I was a, um, You know, I had about 100 births under my belt at that point, probably a little bit more. So I had a good number of births under my belt at that point.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:07:29]:
I was pretty firm on the how to be a doula. I was less firm on the business aspects of it simply because I had this, like, as a childbirth educator, right, I had this steady stream and I was in the military. So there was always that fear that their partner would be deployed or, you know, away at training. And they would ask me to come if their partner was gone, the partner wouldn't be gone, and they would still invite me. So that's sort of how it went. So around that time, around the time right before I moved, is when I learned about what doulas were, um, took my training with Donna, with Penny Simpkin, um, you know, and took my doula trainer training at the same time to work on finding a backup because I was literally covering 5 states, which was ridiculous. And, um, So finding clients in that, I had to reach out and meet new providers. I had to talk to people on the— I mean, there was no have a website.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:08:34]:
I had business cards, and I'm still a big fan of business cards. And if you all haven't heard me talk about business cards, my favorite story is that I have business cards that are blank on the back, and I use them as note cards. If you ask me any question, I'm going to write the answer on the back of a business card and hand it to you.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:08:53]:
I literally did that yesterday for the record.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:08:56]:
Like, this is like— everyone's like, oh, I have this QR. I'm like, yes, I have all that too. You know I love the technology. I can absolutely zap you my info. But the physical act of giving someone a business card, right, that has something that is not related to the work that I do, uh, right, they always turn it over and they look at it. So I was at the grocery store one time talking to this older gentleman who is 70 a piece a day. Absolutely not my target market, right? And we're talking about plumbers for some reason. And I said, oh, I have an amazing plumber because he's saying he needs a plumber.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:09:31]:
So I pull up my business card, I pull up my cell phone, I pull up my plumber's name, I write the name and number of my plumber on the back of my card, I hand it to him plumber side first, right? And he flips it around. And at this point I had a picture of a baby on that card. And he says, Dola, you do babies? And this guy is so not my target market. I didn't correct his pronunciation. Yes, I do babies. I have no idea what that is.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:09:59]:
Right?Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:09:59]:
I'm like, I do babies. And we part ways. So flash forward a couple of years and I'm doing an intake phone call and I say to somebody like, hey, how did you hear about me? Which is always a great way to figure out where you're getting your referrals from and keep track of it. So I said, you know, hey, how'd you hear about me? And she said, don't laugh. My grandfather gave me your name and said that if you were half as good as your plumber, you'd be an amazing doula.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:10:28]:
That's phenomenal. Right?Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:10:30]:
I love that. I've never been compared to a plumber before, but I do babies.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:10:36]:
So I can confirm Robin keeps her pants pulled up in the back. But that's directly related to how I got my very first 3 clients, actually. So it was through networking. Network, network, network. So always being willing to talk about my work. Um, the very first client I ever got was actually a referral from a previous— from a doula at the time, um, who was full. And she was like, hey, I'm full, but there's this really nice new, um, new birth doula. Her name's Hillary.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:11:08]:
You should talk to her. Um, and that's how I got my first client. I ended up being with them 3 different times. They're phenomenal people. Love them. Um, but networking, and it's not just— and I started with other doulas because I was like, hey, what's it like here, right? But it's continuing to network with OB-GYN office, with midwives, with nurses, with chiropractors, with anybody who might possibly be adjacent. Where do your potential clients hang out, right? Um, recently got hired because someone saw our, um, our information at their therapist's office. Right? That's the thing.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:11:47]:
And they're really excited.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:11:49]:
So I want to talk about the other doula part because I think this is a place where a lot of people are very hesitant, right? Because they're worried about competition or being felt like they're seen as competition. And I'm not going to lie, there are certainly some doulas out there who feel that way. But I would say there are way more people who are like excited that there are other doulas in the area. That means I have backup, right? Like, that's what I hear when I have new doulas. And like you said, like they were able to send someone to you, but if they didn't know you existed, you can't send someone to you. Now I do think how you approach this other person, like this, this, like I've had some people who are like, hey, I'm brand new in town. I need you to send me people.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:12:32]:
Yeah. That part. Or I, I recently, like not even, it's been forever. People will say I run a doula agency. So they'll say, I want to become a doula and I'm going to join your group. I'm like, Okay, that's an interesting approach. Okay, we can have a conversation. Sure.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:12:50]:
But yeah, I agree. Like, you have to, you know, be open. And absolutely, there are doulas who are going to be like standoffish, but it turns out there are nice people and not nice people in every profession. That's the moral of the story.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:13:04]:
Let's talk about the right way to approach an established doula, which I think you, you kind of touched on a little bit, which is you know, like I would be open if somebody said, hey, could I buy you coffee and talk about birth here in whatever area you're in? Right. That might be a great way to do it. Um, or to even say, right, hey, I'm a new doula. If you need backup, right, I'm available. Like those are kinds of things that I think are great conversation openers other than just send me your clients. Now I often tell people, right, as a newer doula, you're probably going to get clients who are later in their pregnancy. Because the established doulas are often booked by the time somebody at, you know, 34 weeks is like, oh, my baby's coming in 6 weeks. I should probably get on this doula thing.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:13:52]:
And now as they start calling the established doulas, the established doulas are like, sorry, I'm booked. Sorry, I'm booked. Right? So as a doula, I always want you to have a doula, even if it's not me. I want to be able to give out somebody's name. I don't want you to hear No, no, no, as that potential client. So I love having new doulas around. The other thing is, even if as an established doula I have established backup, that backup may go on vacation. I had a situation where I have, I have longstanding backup.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:14:24]:
I love her. But right, she had a family tragedy happen when we were both on call. And I could not say, hey, I need you to leave your family right now and go to a birth. Like, like, that's just not appropriate. So I needed a backup for my backup. And I think those are things that maybe you don't realize as a brand new doula. But I think contacting other doulas can be a great way. And you can, you don't even have to start with that initial contact.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:14:53]:
Sometimes I always tell people, you know, go to those hyperlocal Facebook groups and look, is there a regional doula group?Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:14:59]:
Right.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:15:00]:
In terms of like,, you know, like a Facebook group and, you know, it could be for your state. It could be for your city. It could be for your region and just listen. Sometimes having the bigger ears is the important part for sure.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:15:16]:
But I think, um, I want to make sure we make the point that some new doulas, you know, they're really excited to get their first 3 clients, but they also need a couple of their ducks in a row when they get the new clients. Um, so like. You know, I'm not saying like, don't— you should be looking for clients, but while you're doing that, you should also, you know, maybe have a contract for them to look over. Um, or, and even, um, that— I think that was probably one of the most daunting things for me as a new doula is like, oh, how am I gonna do this? Do I have to talk to an attorney? Like all of that. And it's like, okay, but something is better than nothing. You have to start from somewhere.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:15:58]:
And The problem is I see that become so overwhelming so quickly that I agree, you have to sort of build it while you're looking for the clients. But then people are like, oh, I need this piece of paperwork and this one and this one. And they're Googling and they're going down this rabbit hole. And what I really want them to say is, if somebody called you today and said, hey, tomorrow I want to interview as a client, you now have 24 hours to get that contract together. Is it going to be perfect? No. Are you going to mess yourself up someplace? Probably. But guess what? It's good for one client. It is not the contract contract you're stuck with for the whole of your career.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:16:32]:
A million percent. I literally edit my contract all the time, right? Oh, I didn't think about that, right? It does get— it has gotten really, really long, the longer I've been doing it. So to try to, you know, put things to— because situations come up. But I mean, that's okay, right? I've learned along the way, and I think that's really important. Um, I think So one of the most effective ways we as an agency have been able to help our newer doulas get new clients is actually to offer a reduced rate for their first 3 clients. Is that something that you recommend to your trainees, Robin?Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:17:15]:
So, you know, the, the reduced rate is really, it's a double-edged sword, right? You don't want to go in charging what the highest priced doula in the area charges. Usually, unless that person is woefully under—Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:17:28]:
but people do. Yeah.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:17:33]:
It's not the best practice. I'm not saying people don't do it and you get to set your own fee. You also do not want to be what I call a bargain basement doula, right? Scratch and dent can. Here's the can I can get for 50 cents. I have no idea what it is. Is it peaches? Is it beans? I have no clue. Right. And so I think sometimes people price themselves so low that there are actually people who don't even realize that they are filtering them out because they're like, what's wrong with that doula? Exactly.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:18:00]:
That, that price is too good to be true. And grandma told me there's no such thing as a free lunch. So it's like, I go back to what my grandma told me, which is like, be wary. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. So I want you to find a fair price that is enough to cover you. And I've started telling people, like, if nothing else, charge what you paid for your doula training. Right, as basement, because I think they need to know what that floor should be. I don't know that I could tell everyone the ceiling because the prices vary so widely all over the country.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:18:38]:
But right, like, even— and I always say, even if you go to one birth and you're like, oh, that was not for me, I don't want to do this again, you are not out any money, right? Great story to share for Two Truths and a Lie. Once I was a birth doula. One time I was a birth doula. Or postpartum doula.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:18:58]:
Right.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:18:58]:
Or postpartum doula. And like any, like after that, like you're good. Like you're like, you made your money back and you realize I don't wanna be up at 3:00 AM and stay up all night.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:19:08]:
And that's why I like being a postpartum doula. So that's another situation we can talk about. I, I do wanna say what, while I, before I forget. Getting postpartum doula clients has, for me, has been much easier because I swear to you, I just have to tell people what a postpartum doula is and that I do it, and they're like, oh my gosh, that's amazing.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:19:31]:
I know. I found that to be true as well. I think it's a little bit harder because people still have this fairy tale image of what happens at the hospital. And when I talk to nurses and I talk to a lot of nurses, I always say, You know, the, you know, right, your patients, when they come in, they imagine that the 3 of you are going to walk into a labor and delivery room and stay together until 4 of you leave. Right. And it's not like that. Right. That is not the reality of nursing care today.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:20:01]:
Not that your nurse doesn't want to stay there ever like that.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:20:04]:
I'm like, I don't know.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:20:07]:
Maybe during the scopolamine days, people assume there's somebody like, I don't know. I mean, home birth is certainly different. Birth center birth may different in some places, you know, depending on what you've got going on. But, you know, in general, people, people don't understand always the value of support during labor and birth, right?Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:20:27]:
They hear one-to-one care and think that nurse literally can be in the room with you the whole time. And I mean, I think we've talked about Dr. Theresa Morris, whose work is like, nah, nah, they have way too much documentation to do and they have to help in other deliveries and, and, and And, um, but that's why, oh my, I end up being like the bread and butter of the doula, uh, birth doula is like that second-time parent because they're like, oh no, no, no, we felt like we needed more support last time. Um, and yeah.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:21:04]:
So what do you think about talking to providers as a way to find, and what advice would you give a new doula about talking to various providers as a way to find clients?Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:21:19]:
I think it can be challenging because they're, you know, they— providers are very, very busy people and have a whole lot of gatekeepers to even get to them. That's been my experience. I don't know if that's also been your experience. Yeah. So getting in touch, you know, it's like knowing the steps that you have to take in order to get in touch with the providers until they like give you their cell phone number. I mean, but that's, that's an experienced doula for you, really.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:21:48]:
I'm like, what?Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:21:49]:
I have her cell phone number. It's fine. So knowing those steps, right? So knowing that you can contact the practice manager and say, hey, I'd love to come and do, you know, a lunch and learn about doulas. I really like— so not just providers, but even the bigger network for me has been connecting with nurses and connecting with those nurse managers to be able to come in and talk, do like a roundtable with nursing staff because there are so many more of them. And I mean, I love it. I love, love, love a good labor delivery nurse. But yeah, so connecting with providers can be that challenging for some people.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:22:33]:
I also want people to think like big picture provider. And so like where I am, some of the home birth midwives require first timers to hire a doula. So who are those midwives in the area? They also may be more accessible. Who are the childbirth educators? Like, one of the things in some training programs, you are required to make a resource list. And a lot of people sit down for 30 minutes with Google, fill out a form and check, right? That's good.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:23:04]:
Like, you could, you do that because you're doing yourself a disservice.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:23:08]:
You are. You want to make that like, if you use that, you can use that as a networking tool. Right? And I always set the challenge, hey, add 2 people a week to your list and make sure you've talked to them, right? Look at their website and just say, hey, Hillary, I see that you're a childbirth educator, and I see that you teach on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Who's your ideal client? So as I'm getting clients, I can steer that person towards you. So then that— you're framing it as, how can I help you? And I always say, like, assuming they're a normal human being, they're also going to ask a few questions about you. But even if they have no intention of ever, like, bringing you to class as a guest speaker, which would be best case scenario, which I've had happen, oftentimes what will happen is they will say things like, um, oh, okay, like, I'll keep that in mind. But then if they have a student who says, hey, I'm looking for a doula, they're like, you know what, I just talked to a doula the other day, let me find their name and give it to you, but if they don't know you exist, they can't even do that. So I want you to think about that resource list.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:24:12]:
And earlier you mentioned chiropractors, lactation consultants, like they're like the, the list is potentially endless for who you could talk to. And this may not pay off today or tomorrow or next week, but you are building your business for the future. Right. And so that's one of the things I want you to think about.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:24:32]:
Yeah, we have a local midwife who does centering appointments, so it's always great to be able to like come. I'll go and like lead a meditation for them and like, you know, just talk. It's fun. Talk about signs of labor that aren't having your cervix checked, those kinds of things.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:24:52]:
I love that very much. I want to talk a little bit more about the salesy part. Because I think that so many people do struggle with that. And I want to say that if you are genuinely sharing what you're interested about, if you're on social media talking, right, everybody wants to use social media. So let's talk about it a little bit. I want you out there sharing things that you're excited about that attract clients. One of the problems I see is that a lot of times people will friend all of the people from their training and all the doulas in their area, and it becomes this echo chamber where they're talking to each other, right? They're creating content for each other because they get those little dopamine spikes as they click like, like, like, right? And the beautiful thing about being a doula on social media is that your clients roll off every 9 months. Replay some of that stuff.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:25:47]:
Like, you don't have to have brand new content all the time, right? Even if you just think, I'm gonna hit a trimester, uh, you know, first trimester at least once a week, second trimester at least once a week, third post, right? Boom, you're done, right? Like, those of the things that you've got and you can recycle it. What's a cool fact about a placenta? Right. Like, like, and I tell people, like, when you're in training and we're talking about clients, I'm like, how many of you have actually already posted that you're so excited to be taking a doula training this weekend? And like one or two hands go up and I'm like, guess what you all need to do? Go post on social media and say, and I have everybody at the end of the day, like write a takeaway you've learned from class. I'm like, go share that takeaway. I'm so excited to learn about this pain theory, right? Or, you know, whatever it is like that kind of thing can be really helpful. Um, spark interest as you're doing your reading and doing the different things as you're doing things like learn about that. So definitely you can use social media. Just make sure your client is your target audience and not other doulas.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:26:54]:
But I'll tell you, Robin, you know this, you know that I went to my doula training right after I had finished my PhD. Um, and I had Well, first of all, grad school will give anyone imposter syndrome. But then to immediately take my doula training, I had some massive imposter syndrome going on, like, oh, they're going to quiz me when I get to the hospital about like the Friedman versus Zhang curve. And I was like, they didn't even make me cite my sources.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:27:23]:
What's going on?Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:27:27]:
They don't do that. They don't at all. It was, it was not like an oral exam in any way, shape, or form. I was sweating. Very pleasantly surprised. Um, but I think, you know, something that's something to be reminded to everybody, like, you're all— when you're first starting out, you're not meant to feel like an expert, and that's okay. That's part of the process. Um, I, I always— I also think about Dunning-Kruger sometimes.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:27:55]:
Like, the more confident you are, like, that doesn't necessarily correlate with your expertise.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:28:04]:
So, well, and I want people to— I want people to understand that the confidence comes from the doing, not learning. Another trap sometimes people fall into is one more class will make me feel better. And then you just— there is always something else to learn. You are never going to get all of the knowledge. I try and start out now telling people, like, don't compare your day 1 with my year 30.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:28:27]:
Listen, I know where you got that.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:28:32]:
But I, you know, I think that that's important for people to think about. Right. And here's the thing. Your client is hiring because they like you. I literally have taught a class of doulas one weekend, gone into my community to interview for a doula spot against somebody I just taught that weekend and not gotten the job they did. And that's awesome, right? That just shows you. And that doula still loves to talk about that story, how they got hired. I'm glad they do.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:29:04]:
I know. And that was like a confidence booster for them, which it should be, right? I was like, that is awesome. I'm so glad. But that just goes to show you that people are really looking for someone that they connect with. And it really has less to do with how much knowledge or experience do you have. Um, don't let your imposter syndrome talk someone else out of hiring you.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:29:26]:
Oh, that's, that's the quote of the episode. I love it. I think that's so important. And remembering like the words that come out of your mouth or, you know, when you're interviewing with new clients, you know, it's okay to be vulnerable and honest. Sometimes that helps them connect with you as well. Um, being honest about, you know, where you are now, you know, I haven't been to a birth yet. I'm really excited to get started.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:29:53]:
You could be number one.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:29:55]:
Yeah, you could be number one. I'll never forget your birth.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:29:58]:
I had— I literally had somebody who— a doula who came in to do my doula panel for me. And she said, I was so worried about getting that question, right? Is this your first birth? And I honestly, very few people get asked that question, but she did get asked that question. And she said, yes, you were going to be— other than my own children, you will be my first birth. And they said, Awesome. Somebody's got to be your first. It might as well be me.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:30:26]:
So exactly, exactly. I think, yeah, it's really, it's fun. It's fun getting started.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:30:35]:
So what do you think about shadowing?Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:30:39]:
I would say my, um, my thoughts on it have evolved the longer I've been doing this work. Uh, uh, and as well, my thoughts pre-COVID, post-COVID are different. Um, pre-COVID, I would have been a lot more open to it, um, which in retrospect I'm like, but why? I, I think it's challenging to be the person that is being shadowed as well. I mean, I've, I've done both, right? Um, but I don't think it's necessary, and I think, I, I, I think it feeds into some of that imposter syndrome as well. Um, you know, post-COVID, it's really easy for me to just say, well, they limit how many people can be in the room, and I really don't want to ask my client to give up another— you know, they want their mom there or whatever. If it's two people and a doula, I mean, most of the hospitals I go to, it's, you know, it's two visitors, and I count as a visitor, so I'm already taking up one spot for them. So that's easy for me to say, what are you going to kick out their partner? Like, what do you want to do? Or, um, they think there's just like some— I find some people will say just magically like, oh, well, just let I come to a home birth, I'm like, okay. And a lot of people who are choosing home birth want that privacy and want fewer people there.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:32:01]:
That's one of the reasons they're choosing home birth. So I think, yeah, so it's evolved. I don't know, how do you feel about shadowing? Do you get asked that question too?Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:32:10]:
I get asked that question a lot, and I think it comes from that place of insecurity about that imposter syndrome. And I think that it seems like a great idea to go watch a doula, but the problem is is the things you want to know are not things I can say out loud. That part. And every minute that I spend talking to you, I'm not talking to my client.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:32:32]:
Yeah.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:32:32]:
And my client now has somebody watching her. Yep. Right? Like, and I've tried it, right? And I, like, I've done it, and I'm actually like, I, like, I have a degree in education. Like, I, like, I, I'm a pretty good mentor.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:32:49]:
Um, and yeah, selling yourself short again.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:32:52]:
Go on. Well, no, I mean, you know what I'm saying? It's It's like, it's like I'm experienced at this. So if I'm struggling with it, you know, how is somebody who doesn't have the experience I have? I've also seen some, I've also seen some people who actually try and take advantage of new doulas where they'll charge their client and then they charge a new doula to come watch and then make the doula do all the work. Fascinating. Like the new doula does all the work. So it's like, I just got twice as much money and I'll sit on the couch. Maybe I'm, Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I think the things that you wanna learn, that's why I love like small group mentoring because we can talk about births, we can watch videos and we can stop and say, okay, what would you have done differently? And there are 5 different things that could have been like we could have done. Right.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:33:42]:
And that is right. That is gonna be, you know, that is gonna be more beneficial for you to understand that there's not one right way.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:33:51]:
Yeah, I— the one birth I shadowed was so outside of normal. Um, like, literally they broke her water and she had a baby within the hour. Like, that is not a normal birth. And so it was an induction. I was like, so now thinking back, like, but I didn't know any different. So, and then when we went to lunch to like debrief and she was like, okay, so that was not normal, let's talk about it. And I was like, oh, okay. Um, I mean, that wasn't my, my experience of birth, birthing my own children.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:34:22]:
So like, I knew, you know, I was like, that was kind of odd, right? She's like, no, that was, that was really odd.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:34:29]:
I wish it happened that way more frequently.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:34:34]:
Uh, maybe we can talk about precipitous birth another time, but I think, um, and yeah, we, we can talk about that another time.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:34:42]:
But I think that if you're to go back to the shadowing, I think that, you know, finding somebody to talk to Excellent. Find somebody to go to birth with, not necessarily what you think you're going to get out of it. Agreed. So I think it takes away from our clients. I think you don't get what you really want to get. And even if you just sit around with some doulas and watch birth videos or listen to birth stories and say, well, why'd you do that? Why not this? Or asking those questions, I think can be super helpful in a way that doesn't impede on a potential client. And, you know, if a nurse turns off a warmer while we're pushing, that's not a good sign. And I do not want to be like, hey doula, did you notice the nurse turned off the warmer?Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:35:30]:
Did you see them put the bunny suit next to the sink? Right? Like that, that you should be able to, you know what's coming, right? Um, yeah, agreed. Like there are some things that are not being said, but you should know as the doula and you're going to have to interpret that. Yeah.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:35:48]:
To turn off the warmer. So things like that. Yeah, things like that. And it, it could be, right, just that they think it's going to take a little bit longer, right?Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:35:55]:
But, but, you know, it's not with the bunny suit.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:35:58]:
Not with a bunny suit, but with the turning off the warmer, right? Uh, or, you know, the, the C-section cart just got parked by your door, right?Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:36:08]:
Oh, well, I did— I do have one provider I work with pretty regularly who, he will do this thing when you're pushing where he will act— it's It's so funny. Sorry. He'll actually grab the vacuum and like wave it over your vulva and he's like, if I do this, then I won't need to use it. And I was like, so we're threatening the vulva? Like, I'm very confused about what's going on here. But you know what? He says it works and whatever.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:36:35]:
Anyway, if it makes him happy and now he thinks I don't have to use this.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:36:39]:
Well, I, this is what I told him. I said, I think you're just motivating them to push harder. It's really what's going on. And okay, that's fine too. But is that, I'm like, I'm like, but you also have to throw that away, right? Because you took it out, like you opened it and like all of that. He's like, yeah.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:36:55]:
Anyway, it was a whole thing. So as we close up, what is your one best piece of advice for new doulas looking for their first clients?Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:37:06]:
Keep talking to people about what you do and you will find clients.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:37:14]:
It will happen.Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:37:16]:
Um, don't pay a lot of— don't pay more money than you have for your own, like, to find doula clients than you have already spent. That's my best piece of advice.Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:37:30]:
I love it. And I would say don't get mired in all the details. Like, do not go down a rabbit hole taking training after training, and I have to have 53 perfect documents, right? There's no such thing. That is myth. Never. Thank you for being here with the Birth Geeks, and we'll see you in a new episode soon. Hi, Robin. Bye.
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