Episode Summary
Today we dug into the real challenges of supporting clients through inductions as doulas. We named why clear, early conversations about induction matter, not just for our clients but for our own well-being. Whether it’s adjusting to higher induction rates after the ARRIVE trial, navigating hospital policies, or simply figuring out when your presence will have the most impact, the answer is never one-size-fits-all. Our advice: define your terms, set up clear expectations, and communicate often. Sometimes your presence is emotional support. Sometimes it’s physical. Always, it’s collaborative and client-focused. Inductions are unpredictable, but your preparation doesn’t have to be.
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Episode Time Stamps
00:00 “Doulas Prioritize Client Support”
05:38 Support for Hospital Check-Ins
08:13 “Challenges in Labor Induction Timelines”
12:40 Doula Challenges Supporting Epidural Goals
14:37 “Induction Prep and Comfort Tips”
19:03 “Call When Extra Support Needed”
22:02 Clear Communication in Doula Support
23:49 Doulas Aren’t Birth Educators
Key Takeaways
Induction conversations need to start in the first trimester, not at 39 weeks. By the time a provider is recommending induction, your client is already in a pressured, emotionally loaded moment. They cannot absorb complex information or think clearly about options when they are sitting in a clinic chair being told their baby needs to come now. The doulas who navigate these situations most effectively are the ones who started the conversation months earlier, in a calm prenatal setting, when learning was actually possible.
Induction is not labor, and your client needs to understand that distinction before they go in. Cervical ripening, a Foley bulb, Cervidil, Pitocin, an amniotomy, regular contractions, active labor: these are not the same thing, and conflating them sets everyone up for confusion and exhaustion. When a client understands that being admitted and being in labor are different events, they make better decisions about rest, about when to call you, and about what to expect from the process.
Dilation alone is a poor benchmark for when to show up. A client at 3 centimeters who is contracting back to back on Pitocin may be far closer to needing you than a client at 6 centimeters who is comfortable and barely feeling contractions. Committing to a rigid number gives you a rule to hide behind, but it does not serve your client. The question is always: what does this particular person need right now, in this particular induction, at this particular hospital?
Your geography is part of your protocol. A 10-minute drive and a 90-minute drive are not the same clinical decision. Rural doulas, doulas who serve multiple counties, and doulas whose clients are delivering far from home are all doing different math. Building that geography into your rate, your backup plan, and your explicit client communication is not optional. It is the difference between a plan your client can rely on and a plan that falls apart at 2am.
Set check-in expectations before your client ever goes through the hospital door. Doulas who wait for clients to call are often the ones who get calls too late or not at all, because clients do not want to bother you. Flipping that dynamic, by establishing scheduled check-ins, giving the nursing staff your number, and using pre-scheduled text messages, keeps you in the loop without putting the burden entirely on a laboring person to remember to communicate.
Pacing yourself is a clinical decision, not a luxury. If your client’s induction runs 3 or 4 days, the person who shows up at hour 72 is not the same person who showed up at hour 2, and your client deserves the best version of you at the moment they actually need support. Communicating this to clients in advance, and having a plan for rest, relief, and backup, is part of providing excellent care. The doulas who burn out are often the ones who never gave themselves permission to pace.
Childbirth education and doula support are separate skills, and your clients need both. You cannot cover childbirth education inside a doula contract, and trying to do it shortchanges everyone. When clients walk into an induction having already learned the terminology, the process, and their options from a trained educator, they are less likely to be blindsided, less likely to feel pushed into decisions, and far better positioned to use your support effectively.
From the Birth Geeks
Episode 23: The Value of Childbirth Education
Mentioned in This Episode
Arrive Trial from Clinical Trials
What Happens When Two Doula Clients Go Into Labor at the Same Time
The Doula Recovery Routine Nobody Talks About
Read the Full Transcript
Note: This transcript is auto-generated and may contain minor errors. Please refer to the audio for precise language, especially around clinical terms and data. And yes, sometimes “doula” gets interpreted… creatively.
Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:00:02]: Hey Robin! Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:03]: Hey Hillary! Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:00:05]: Okay, can I just say I'm not actually excited to talk about our topic today? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:09]: I am. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:00:10]: Well, yay, I'm really glad. It's okay. And I will say I'm not like upset about it, it's just not my favorite thing to talk about because I feel like I do this so much, like I have to navigate this situation so much more than when I started as a doula. And so that it's Frustrates me. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:30]: So let's say what the topic is today. We're going to talk about when do you go to an induction as a doula? And I'm going to say, first off, you talking about how you don't like to talk about it is part of the problem. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:00:43]: Not you. I know you're not calling me out. It's fine. Um, you're calling me in. Yeah, everybody. Sure. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:00:50]: I'm calling everybody in because honestly, when we talk about induction, we are talking about it way too late in the game. No one can think clearly when they're 39 weeks and their doctor is saying, oh, I'm sorry, have your baby now. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:01:05]: Are they waiting until then? Because you know what I'm saying? Way earlier. But yes, I agree. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:01:09]: Yeah. You can't wait until the third trimester to discuss induction. Yeah. When we do, I sometimes feel like as doulas, we are playing tug of war with the provider and that leaves our clients stuck in the middle. And I always say I'm team client, right? Like I am always on your team. I'm going to go wherever you go. I never want to feel like I've put you in the middle of something. And that is a very fine line that we have to walk between helping our clients see all of their options, choosing the option that's right for them, not what's right for us, not what we want. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:01:45]: Right. And not my birth. Not my birth. Not my birth. That is my mantra. But I think we we shy away from the conversation or we don't frame it in a way that our— sometimes I think we beat around the bush and we're not really clear about what we're trying to say. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:02:02]: Oh, and let me be clear, I'm just not excited to talk today about it because I talk about it all the time. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:02:11]: Oh, I know you do. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:02:12]: Well, the doulas on my team, right? We're constantly like, okay, when should I go in? Like, what do you think? So to the point that I wrote up a protocol for our agency, like, hey, these are best practices. This is what you need to be doing, which is just— I don't know why I didn't start doing that in the very beginning, but, you know, here we are. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:02:30]: So, well, and I think, I think we have to acknowledge something you also said, right? The induction rates are very different since the ARRIVE trial. And it seems like anything that is really pro-technology picks up really quickly and anything that is like not pro-technology doesn't pick up very quickly, right? Like, oh, are we still really not feeding people in labor. Oh, wait. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:02:54]: Yes. Where I am. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:02:56]: Yeah, no, I know. Same. But I'm just saying, like, that even though we have data on that, that didn't pick up very quickly. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:03:03]: And that's not even new data. But anyway, that's my point. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:03:06]: It's not new data. But a rock trial, they were like, yeah, let's go on that baby. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:03:12]: Well, yeah. Which we could get into a whole technocratic versus discussion. But when as a doula do you show up? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:03:22]: So I I think one of the things you have to remember is that this is dependent on at least 2 factors, probably more, and that is both the client and the induction. Yeah. You know, and part of under client, part of that is going to go, what do they want? What are they hoping for? Part of it might be, what are the policies and protocols at the hospital? So, for example, one of the things that we saw during COVID was everybody who was going to be there at the birth had to walk in the door at the same time. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:03:51]: Mm-hmm. Right. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:03:51]: And if you didn't walk in the door, you weren't getting in later. So if someone was coming in for a Foley bulb induction, oh my gosh, you, you had to be there with all your snacks. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:04:04]: Mm-hmm. I hope you brought a pillow. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:04:06]: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, and, and you could be there for 3 or 4 days with them. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:04:10]: Yeah. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:04:10]: And that there was no switching out. There was no, right. So thankfully we're there. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:04:16]: Right. We're not doing that anymore. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:04:17]: Um, but it's also induction dependent, right? Are they— and I think part of this, part of the thing I start with with my clients is just having them understand like all the terms, like induction doesn't equal labor, contractions don't equal labor, right? You know, being admitted to the hospital doesn't equal labor, right? Right. We put in a Foley bulb, that does not make you in labor, right? We put in Cervidil, that does not make you in labor, right? Like, yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:04:44]: So start by defining your terms. Yeah. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:04:46]: Define your terms and help the client understand this is not labor. You're going to wear all— like, and I just point blank say, you want us all to save our energy for when you are in labor. Not that I won't talk to you, not that I won't help you, but I'm not giving charades. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:05:06]: Yeah. I'm giving emotional support, like all of that. Absolutely. But that physical, like, in the room, that you want me to be at the top of my game. So we got to time that a little bit. And yeah, so that— and making— and like you were saying, that very clear communication. Let's define our terms. Let's talk about, OK, what does this look like from my side? What does it look like from your— like, what do I need from you? What do you need from me and when? But so I don't know. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:05:38]: I don't think it's a hot take, but some clients want us to show up because they have hospital anxiety when they're checking in. Because it helps them settle into the room. And we do that as an agency. We go and help them settle if they want, right? We don't assume that they want us there, but we say that if you want us to be there, we will come for, you know, an hour or so when you're getting checked in. And when I'm there, I'm talking to you, distracting you from them poking you, all of those things. And before I leave, I'm laying out, okay, the next steps are I will need for you to stay in contact with me and call me when it's time to come in. And here are some signs that you might want me to come in. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:06:23]: I lovingly call that turndown service. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:06:26]: Oh, I feel like that makes me sound so concierge, like fancy. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:06:30]: I do provide turndown service. I will show up and I literally, like, sometimes I'll bring like little lollipops and leave them on the pillow or something like that. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:06:38]: That's adorable. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:06:39]: I had this one person who was really into the whole turndown service, so she went to change into her gown. And I was like, she's like, oh, look at this. I got a sugar-free lollipop on my— Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:06:49]: I was like, you could totally get some like Preggie Pops or something. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:06:54]: It was something like that. It would. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:06:56]: I mean, I wouldn't be doing Andy's. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:06:58]: No, I know. I thought about, actually, I did think about Andy's, but I was like, yeah, probably not. Probably not good. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:07:03]: Chocolate in labor. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:07:05]: No. So anyway, I do that for the same reason. It also gives me the opportunity to say to the nurse, please put my number in the chart. Please write a note. Anyone can call me at any time. You can call me, the night nurse can call, like, whoever. Never hesitate to call me. Right. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:07:25]: And I have yet to have anyone abuse that, by the way. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:07:28]: No, but I do have people use it, and it's something that they might say, hey, FYI, shift is changing, and Dr. So-and-so is coming in to talk to your client. And I'm reading between the lines. I will be right there. Right. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:07:45]: Well, and I've just gotten as a doula, I've been in a couple like hairy, like dad calls me and he's like, well, they, I don't know, they said she was 8 last, I guess maybe come in. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:07:56]: And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm in the car. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:07:59]: I'll be right there. So that pre-work right before you, before they even go in for the induction and before you leave, if you are there for the turn-down service. I'm totally stealing that, by the way. Turn-down service. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:08:13]: Well, and I think one of the things that's really difficult here is that You know, particularly if you are doing a lot of births where you're not seeing inductions, or you previously have, where you've just gotten really used to that rhythm of normal labor. That's not what we're talking about here. And there is research coming out that it says like maybe we're up in the pit too fast, right? That 30 to 40 minutes seems to be that ideal time. And so maybe this 15-minute crap is too, too rapid. Listen, you know, and the number of times I'm talking to someone and then 30 minutes later they're sobbing because, you know, and that's, that's what we're looking for. And one of the things I want to add here is that part of this is where do you live as a doula. This is very different if, you know, there's a hospital that is just a couple of, uh, you know, miles down the street, right? Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:09:13]: And then there's We have one hospital, but it's an hour and a half away from us that we service, like, go there, which is pretty much the edge of where I'm comfortable because, oh my gosh, I did one. Sorry, I'll just interject. I did once take someone, like, outside, and I was like, no, I'm not ever— I never want to drive that fast ever again. I just know I'm uncomfortable. But yeah, no. So understanding where the hospital is and how far away from your client you are, right? I think about doulas who live in a really rural area. When we saw Dr. Dr. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:09:47]: Liddell do that presentation in '23 about rural doulas in Montana. I mean, she's talking about doulas who are driving hours to get to their clients. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:09:55]: And then what do you do? Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:09:58]: Yeah. You were here when before a lot of other doulas. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:10:01]: I do 5 states. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:10:03]: The OD, the original, the original rural doula. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:10:07]: I remember trying to book it to St. Louis right from Louisville, Kentucky to get to a birth. That's far. Yeah, yeah, it was bad. But, you know, and so I didn't want to do that. I do realize that some doulas have to do that, um, and then you're gonna modify. And that's where, you know, I literally started building in— like, one of the first times I increased my rate was I put in enough money if somebody lived outside of a certain radius that I could spend the night in a hotel. Oh, right. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:10:37]: I'm trying to risk trying to sleep in a parking lot or on the side of the road or driving while I'm exhausted. Neither of those is safe. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:10:46]: I'm only laughing because I go to a few really, like, extremely rural hospitals where there is literally not a hotel that I can stay at. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:10:55]: Yeah. And that's a whole separate— I literally, I've gone home and I had a midwife at one of the hospitals who was like, I was really pregnant at the time and it was one of those. I was in another state. I was actually in Indianapolis. I had the midwife at the hospital was like, We were there for an induction. Mom was going to bed. She was like, why don't you come to my house and sleep in my guest room? And I was like, okay. Yeah. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:11:18]: So have I gone home to— this sounds really weird to say— gone home to sleep with the provider? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:11:26]: I think so. One of the clues we are always looking for when we're talking to people about when to come in is like, listen, if you feel like you are— need some extra physical support, or even just a presence is going to help calm things down for you, um, if you start to feel like out of control. So sometimes, like, especially when we're talking about pitocin, like you were saying, like, it can really just amp up very quickly. Don't wait. I would rather spend like a little extra time with you. But, but the problem then, I think, it for I mean, we've all had those clients that it's a 3, 4-day induction. And so then having the systems in place that it's like, okay, I need a break. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:12:17]: Like, I have someone to come relieve you and taking naps and eating and having that client understand when you choose induction, that also means that I have to pace myself differently in order to provide you— like, if I can keep you calm and then I can go nap in the waiting room or You know, I've had nurses kind enough to let me have like an on-call room or something, right? Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:12:38]: Like, wow. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:12:40]: Yeah. You know, I mean, so I just kind of want to look at like, there might be different things that could be really helpful. And I think the other piece of this is particularly if you have a client who starts out like hoping to avoid pain medication or an epidural, we know that an epidural may make that more likely. And. If that is still their goal, I'm going to do everything I can to help you get that. And the number of times I feel like I get the call and then I walk in the door and the anesthesiologist is there. I'm like, oh my God, they're like wheeling the cart in and you're like, I could have been like, what? I did something wrong. Could I have been there sooner? And it's not that I did anything wrong, but it's like I always ask, did I miss a sign? Did I not hear something that I should have heard? And I just want to acknowledge acknowledge that that can feel really bad as a doula, and it's not your fault. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:13:37]: Sometimes it's the labor. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:13:39]: I mean, and that I will say, that's one of the times when I'm like, I legitimately understand, like, shift work, right? Doula shift work. Especially like, I've been talking to some doulas who work in hospital programs, and like, that tag team approach to be able to do that, I get it. I absolutely get it. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:13:58]: There's some independent partnerships that work that way. And for an induction, that might be the smart thing for for you to do with another doula, particularly if you have a client who knows that they may have hospital phobias or specific needs that maybe one doula can't fulfill for 3 full days. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:14:16]: Oh my gosh. But like, my favorite is like, you've been there for so long that like the nurse comes back after having been off and they go, oh, you're still here. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:14:29]: I know that you don't mean that the way it sounds, but it feels just as bad as it feels. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:14:33]: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, oh, Yes, I see you. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:14:37]: Well, and I want you to also think about, like, is like, if you go to an induction, bring better snacks. Like, make sure you have a change of clothes. Like, all the things that you would normally do, but if you're there for 12 hours, it's a lot less important to bring your deodorant and your little face wipes and the little things that make you feel a little bit better. So sometimes I think those creature comforts— as I've gotten older, one of the things that I bring is I have like this foldable stool That has been really nice. So that if I kind of feel like I'm the person who gets the last seat in the room, and so if everybody is in a seat, I'm kind of like, I'm not going to be able to stand up for 3 days. So, you know, pull up. All right, well, let's go. Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:15:22]: But bottom line, very clear communication with your clients and open communication and making sure everyone has a way to get a hold of you and when you need to be there and knowing how about communication. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:15:35]: I want to talk, I want to ask you a question. Do you see people using dilation as a, like, I will come with like that, that dilation dependent? How do you feel about that, particularly in an induction versus, I mean, right, I think it's a separate thing if you're talking about like spontaneous labor. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:15:58]: What are your thoughts on, on I'll only come when you're in quote unquote active labor, right? Um, or so many centimeters. Well, as defined by 6 centimeters, right? We're talking about the Zhang curve and all of that. Um, I get very frustrated by that. Um, so I go back to the, to Penny's article, right? When she's like, we're doing a disservice by not supporting people in early labor. And I think especially in an induction. Yeah, especially when it's a very medically managed situation. Like you were saying, it can— they can be 3 centimeters and those contractions are coming back to back to back to back. Um, and for first-time parents, like, throw in the towel because they're doing that labor math, like, oh my gosh, I've only been doing it this long and I'm only— I've been doing it this long and I— you know what I'm saying? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:16:50]: Like, 3 to 10 could be 3 contractions contractions. But there's also the person who's, oh, 6 centimeters, thinking they're gonna have their baby any minute, and they're not feeling any of the contractions that are coming every 20 minutes. Like, that person's not having their baby anytime soon. Typically, you know, the person who's 3 who's like, ah, right, they are closer to having their baby in my mind than the person who's 6 and like, oh, that was a contraction. Okay, we had hiccups. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:17:17]: I rarely see someone on Pitocin that is 6 centimeters and like, oh, that was— Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:17:21]: I've had a few people who were like 4 to 5 when go in and they get to 6 really easily and are still not right. So I have had a few people like that for sure. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:17:33]: And again, I think it's also remembering method matters, right? I've been to plenty of inductions where literally they just break someone's water and then here's a baby. Literally. Actually, I've been to several where they break the water, not the baby. They don't break the baby. They break the water and they have a baby within an hour. Yeah. And I gotta be there. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:17:58]: Yeah. And then you go to somewhere they break the water and you're like 12 hours later. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:18:03]: I guess we should start some pit, right? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:18:08]: Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:18:08]: So it's just, it's, it's a very fluid situation. The other part is, is making sure you have everything as usual in a row at home so that you can skedaddle at any moment. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:18:22]: Um, good communication with your backup, which brings us back to where we started and where you were going, which is clear client communication. What do you tell someone when they're at the hospital having an induction? Maybe you did turn down service, maybe you didn't. What do you generally— like, when would you ask them to call you? Like, what— you're, you're walking out the door, or you— they are going in the door, right? So they aren't in, they aren't aren't doing the induction yet, and let's say they're going in for cervical ripening the night before the induction. And what would you say to them? When do you want them to call? Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:19:03]: I say to them, I— if you feel like you need— when you feel like you need extra support, I want you to call me. Now, what I'm not saying to them is I'm still just like any spontaneous labor. I'm gonna listen on the phone to what's going on before I like get in my car and come. Right. So if you call me and you're like, hey, I just really feel like I need some extra support. And you are the one calling, you know, like we're, I'm gonna be like, okay, talk to me about what's going on. Like we're gonna have a conversation. Whereas if your partner calls and it was, it is like, uh, I can hear you. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:19:39]: I can hear you in the background. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm going, I'm going to assess what's going on. But that is always what I say because I want to allow for that difference, the difference between I need physical support and I'm freaking out because, oh my gosh, I'm not even having any contractions and how long is this going to take, right? I want to allow for that. I want to support you And sometimes that means me physically coming right then. And sometimes it means you want to hear my voice and know that I'm there for you. And that is the same phone call either way. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:20:18]: Sorry. And to add to that, I also— I, and maybe you do this too— I also have like sort of scheduled check-ins. For example, for the person who's going in the night before, I will say, call me before you go to bed. Yeah. Right. Let me know, how are you feeling? It gives me that chance to check in. Call me when you get up. Call me in the middle, like always call me whenever you need me, but also, you know, call me before you go to bed. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:20:43]: That way I'm not like, oh gosh, were they having any contractions, right? I don't want to bother them. I hear a lot of doulas say they're worried about contacting their client, or they're worried— I don't want to annoy them either. So if I say the expectation is call me before you go to bed, if you've not called me by 11, I'm going to call you. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:21:01]: I'm going to call you. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:21:02]: Exactly. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:21:02]: And I think the other thing I'll do is I will schedule, send several text messages over the course of like the next 12 hours. They'll be like, you know, like, hey, it's 6:30, just FYI, you're gonna get a new nurse in 30 minutes, or like those kinds of things. And again, it's, it's just like trying to be thoughtful, which by the way, I can then, if I'm in the car on the way, I can just delete. Exactly. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:21:27]: Like, okay, not like, how did you just text me? Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:21:30]: I've never forgotten. Of course I'll probably forget now that time. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:21:35]: I was gonna get a random text. Why did they text me? Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:21:38]: Why am I gonna get a nurse? What, what are you talking about? I went home, right? Or yeah, I mean, that, that could backfire, right? If the nurse is working shorter, like sometimes they'll do 8s or whatever instead of 12s. Neither here nor there. But, uh, but yeah, or like, hey, I wanna tell me, I wanna know who's on call for the, your doctor today, or, um, or whatever it is. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:22:02]: If early communication about what induction is, when it might be offered, you know, are they going to a provider that you as a doula have seen multiple clients get, you know, the big baby talk? Oh, prep them for that ahead of time so that they're not blindsided when they walk in. The doctor's like, oh, then they're already like, well, hey, isn't— and then they ask some questions that are a little more thoughtful. They might understand how to handle that a little bit better, and they don't feel like it was a push and pull. And then also, right, when we talk about clear client communication, I think that by being really clear about both beforehand, during, and after, that we also set people up to feel like they've been well supported the whole time, which is our whole goal. When people feel like, well, I wasn't sure when to call the doula, and I worried, I don't want to add that stress onto them. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:22:58]: Oh, mine's in writing. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:23:00]: Well, but even that, not everybody's is. And I want to add that additional stress onto somebody who says, right, like, well, I was worried. The doula said call when, and I want you to know, like, it is always okay to call. Dr. Hillary Melchiors [00:23:16]: Yes, I will not be mad at you for calling. I want to circle back a little bit and say I am very frustrated with the oversimplification of I will come when you are 6 centimeters or more. Yeah, I mean, that, that's the bottom line we laid out before. I'm just frustrated with that, that oversimplification, because, you know, and I get it, I really do. Like, I get the, the understanding behind it, like why you would choose that, but also I think we need to be a little more thoughtful as doulas. Yeah. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:23:49]: And this really, this is, this may be the hill I die on, we are not birth educators as doulas, and it's really important that your clients are getting their education from someone. It can't always be you. And if you have a package deal, that's awesome because you have the time to do that. But you do not have the time in your doula contract to do childbirth education. That is a separate thing and it's a separate skill. And that is going to be really helpful when they hear it multiple places. And then they have that plan. So, you know, the bottom line is this is like early and often education and communication. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss [00:24:36]: Understanding is dependent on the client, the location, the induction, and the doula. So that's all we have today, but make sure you check the show notes. Nothing to add. We will have all of our, uh, all the links to the research and some different articles to help you out. Out, and we'll see you in another episode soon.