Episode Summary
There is a version of this work where you stay quiet, play it safe, and hope the right clients find you. And then there is the version where you show up as exactly who you are and let the right families self-select in. Lisa Vee built her entire coaching practice on the second approach, and this conversation is a direct case study in why it works. From a corporate sales background that she describes as a long season of performance, she found her way into birth work and eventually into coaching other doulas to build businesses that can actually last. Her framework is simple and worth sitting with: visibility is not about glamour, it is about access. Families cannot choose support that does not exist in their line of sight.
Pricing is where a lot of the conversation lands, and it should. Lisa makes a clear and practical case for separating your rate from what the doula down the street is charging. Your price reflects your niche, your expenses, your time, and how long you want to stay in this work. When you do the actual math, a lot of pricing structures stop making sense very quickly. The doulas who burn out in under two years often do so because they never built sustainable revenue, and when doulas leave the field, the families who needed them most are the ones who pay the price.
The deeper thread running through this episode is authenticity as a business practice. Lisa talks about sharing her miscarriage publicly not as a marketing move, but as a choice to heal out loud. What followed was a flood of doulas and families saying, finally, someone is saying this. That is the intersection she is always pointing toward: when you lead with your lived experience, your story becomes a filter. The right clients recognize themselves in you, the wrong ones opt out, and the whole consultation process gets cleaner. Your bold birth brand, as she puts it, is the one thing no one can duplicate because no one else has had your life.
Listen to This Episode
Episode Time Stamps
00:00 “Finding Purpose Through Birth Work”
03:33 “Birth Work and Coaching Journey”
09:08 “Doula: Holding Life’s Transitions”
11:29 “Vulnerability in Life Transitions”
15:42 “Empowering Doulas Through Value”
17:44 Doula Certification and Accountability
21:42 “Authenticity and Connection in Doula Work”
24:13 “Energy, Fit, and Pricing”
29:04 Pricing Your Worth Rationally
30:46 “Diverse Insights from Doula Work”
35:40 “Embracing Authenticity in Care”
38:52 Healing Through Vulnerability
41:43 Personal Branding Through Lived Experience
45:01 “Embrace Authenticity, Be Yourself”
48:08 “Gratitude for Fun Podcast”
Key Takeaways
Visibility is about access, not performance. Lisa reframes the entire idea of showing up online. Families cannot choose support that they do not know exists, and when you share your values, stories, and lived experience, you are giving them the information they need to decide whether you are the right fit. It is less about being loud and more about being findable by the right people.
Your price belongs to you, not your local market. Comparing your rate to the doula across town is comparing apples to oranges. Your pricing should reflect your niche, your overhead, your childcare costs, your backup plan, and how long you actually want to stay in this work. When you run the real numbers, a lot of pricing structures collapse fast.
Sustainable revenue is a clinical issue. When doulas price themselves out of viability, they leave the field. The families who needed that doula do not get support, and the gifts that doula had developed over years go with them. Pricing is not a personal preference conversation. It is a workforce sustainability conversation.
Your bold birth brand cannot be duplicated. No one else has had your life, your losses, your transitions, or your particular set of hard-earned convictions. When you lead with lived experience, you create something that cannot be copied. It also acts as a filter: the right clients recognize themselves in your story, and the wrong ones quietly opt out before the consultation even begins.
Vulnerability in visibility is informed consent. This is Lisa’s most pointed line, and it lands. Families deserve transparent access to who you are before they hire you. When your online presence hides the parts of yourself you are afraid to show, you are withholding information that could help them make a better decision. Showing up honestly is not marketing. It is respect.
You cannot do this work sustainably by trying to serve everyone. The instinct to cast a wide net is common in new doulas and understandable. But the doulas who stay in this work long term tend to be the ones who niched down, got honest about who they are most equipped to support, and stopped apologizing for not being the right fit for everyone. Knowing who you are not for is as clarifying as knowing who you are.
Introverts have real advantages in the consultation room. Lisa calls herself Loudmouth Lisa and means it, but she is quick to point out that the doulas who pride themselves on being introverted often have a significant edge. Active listening, reading the room, and leading with intuition are exactly the skills that build trust during a first consultation. There is no single personality type that makes a good doula. There is only authentic or not.
Mentioned in This Episode
From Our Guest
Episode 56: Pricing Your Doula Services: Tips for Longevity and Sustainability
Episode 60: Mastering SEO and Analytics for Doula Marketing
Episode 41: The Doula Darcy Talks About Marketing Your Birth Business
Episode 57: Stress-Free Rebranding: Insights and Tools for Birth Professionals
Episode 59: Exploring Doula Certification and Policy Challenges
Episode 66: Navigating Birth Burnout and Being Queer in Midwifery
From the Blog
Should You List Your Doula Prices Online? Pros, Cons, and a Simple Test
Avoid These 3 Common Doula Interview Mistakes
How to Increase Doula Awareness and Attract More Clients
Turn Minutes Into Money with the Money Moments Method
How to Use Affiliates to Make Additional Income as a Doula Without Feeling Salesy
15 Ways to Market Your Doula Business in Just 5 Minutes
Read the Full Transcript
Note: This transcript is auto-generated and may contain minor errors. Please refer to the audio for precise language, especially around clinical terms and data. And yes, sometimes “doula” gets interpreted… creatively.
Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 00:00 - 00:06 Hey, Hillary. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 00:06 - 00:07 Hey, Robin. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 00:07 - 00:13 So here we are again for another episode of The Birth Geeks. What are we going to geek out about today? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 00:13 - 00:23 I think we're going to geek out about afterbirth routines. What's that? You know, when you deliver the placenta? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 00:23 - 00:26 Is it a choreographed dance move? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 00:27 - 00:40 No, I'm not talking about that. Oh, thank goodness. I want to talk about it from the doula perspective. So post-birth routines, what do you do after you go to a birth as a birth doula? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 00:40 - 00:46 Clearly, we're not the only doulas. I'm really trying to remember that lately, especially. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 00:47 - 00:54 When does that start? Do I get to define what starts the post-birth ritual? I like that. How do you escape the room? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 00:56 - 01:27 No, escaping the room, I've got down to an art, but for me, like when I'm training doulas, one of the big questions, cause they're always crying at the birth videos because right, babies. birth. And I always say, you know, the day I couldn't cry at a birth is the day I want to leave. But that I don't often cry at a birth, that when I feel it is that moment I sit down in my car, where I take that deep breath and go, Oh, that was a thing. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 01:27 - 01:28 Yeah. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 01:28 - 01:36 Right. And so I used to just like turn the car on and drive home. And now I've learned to just kind of sit with it. Sometimes that's a minute, sometimes it's 10. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 01:36 - 01:56 Right. Sometimes there are tears, sometimes they're not. But for me, I think that post-birth ritual starts in the car and taking that deep breath and kind of cataloging what was that experience like for me? Because I think that sometimes it's easy to forget that we are participants in this and that we matter too. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 01:57 - 02:40 Yeah, yeah that's well said and also I feel like what when you sit in your car or get in the you know the subway car or whatever it is when you're on your way home out of an Indiana there's not a So realizing to look at home in different ways, acknowledging that it was definitely at home in different ways, right? If you get in the lift or whatever it is, but that's the moment you get to take the hat off, right? That's the moment when you can like take the plastered face that you have on like, because you say goodbye to the security guard as you walked out or the hospital or goodbye to the midwives as you left someone's house or whatever. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 02:40 - 02:43 And that's the moment, it's the first like private moment. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 02:44 - 03:07 That's a very good way to put it. And for me, I actually, like, there is a ritual that some of you may have heard, but like, I have hospital shoes and I have a hospital sweater. And sometimes it's this one. I have a, like, I take it off when I get to whatever sweater I've been wearing, but I look a little bit like Mrs. Rogers getting to go to a birth. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 03:08 - 03:27 Right. I get out of my car and like, I should sing a little song, but I like, put on different shoes, if I don't have squeezy socks, like my compression socks, I'll put those on. I'll switch my, you know, I'll wear a sweater that's clean so that there are no smells on it. And then I know I can take it off when I come out in case there's any body fluid on it. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 03:27 - 03:41 Right. And so then when I come out, I do that same ritual where I switch my sweater and I switch my shoes back. And so I think for me, like there is that literally taking off. Like I'm removing my shoes and my sweater and putting Robin back on. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 03:41 - 03:51 And then I can sit in the car and just, and sometimes I'm like, I just want to go home. Right. And it's a very short time. And sometimes it's a, I need to sit here for a minute. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 03:52 - 04:03 But I think that. that is like just that part of it. I think you probably mean more like longer term than just that first 10 minutes. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 04:03 - 04:18 Well, first I want to say for any of our younger listeners, Robin definitely referenced Mr. Rogers' neighborhood. And if you are unaware, that is one of the things that he used to do in the beginning of a show was change his shoes. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 04:18 - 04:28 For the record, I hated the show, never really watched it. I know, I know, I know. So it really hurts me a little bit to say that I, yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 04:28 - 04:37 Okay, that's a whole other ball of wax, but I was a big fan of Mr. Rogers. So there you go. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 04:39 - 04:45 don't look so hurt. It's not. I mean, I think he was a kind man. It's just like, not my cup of tea. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 04:45 - 04:49 Yeah, no, that's okay. Takes all time. You were more of a Yo Gabba Gabba? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 04:49 - 04:53 No, gosh, no. We were more of a no TV family. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 04:53 - 05:07 Oh, yeah, no, we were PBS kids all the way. Like Daniel Tiger, I can still sing the songs and like, my kids will talk about Dinosaur Train and Yeah, you know, Robin gave me this like, what are you talking about look just now. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 05:07 - 05:09 I think she's making things up. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 05:09 - 05:21 Listen, all you PBS kids moms, parents out there like I promise like you're not alone. Okay, so you can be a geek and let your kids watch some TV. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 05:21 - 05:26 Oh, yeah. No, no, my kids watch TV. I didn't watch TV growing up. Got it. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 05:26 - 05:34 So no, no, my kids absolutely watch TV. Okay. And I have older kids and younger kids. So I've been like, I actually had to listen to Barney. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 05:37 - 05:49 Yeah, well, Come on, none of them are that great. Cocomelon. I had to watch some of that when I was babysitting a child in my class. I had a, I had a student bring a child to class and someone was like, show them Cocomelon. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 05:50 - 05:59 So I'm searching this stuff up. My phone probably, no, the parent like was like, yeah, they love Cocomelon. Anyway, totally on topic. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 05:59 - 06:07 Yeah. But, um, I mean, a little bit on topic, I will say some people decompress watching television. That's a thing. Or like. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 06:08 - 06:23 you know, check out by checking into a show. And they, you know, it's an alternate place to feel. Although I did just watch a show recently that I was like, there should have been a trigger warning for doulas on that. But we can talk about that another time. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 06:24 - 06:25 How we yell at the TV for birth scenes. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 06:27 - 06:30 We should 100% do an episode about that. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 06:30 - 06:41 But so I love that. That's our whole new podcast. We're just going to listen to us while we watch shows with birth scenes. But there is a spin-off of The Birth Beasts. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 06:41 - 06:49 There's literally an OB-GYN who does that on their YouTube channel. I can't remember her name. I'm very sorry. She's really funny. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 06:49 - 06:55 We should go back and do all the episodes she did. Oh. Just to see how they're different. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 06:55 - 06:57 I love that. Okay. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 06:57 - 06:57 Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 06:57 - 06:58 Fun ideas. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 06:58 - 07:05 We won't listen to her first, though. We'll just have someone tell us, like, this is the show she watched. And then we can do- Yeah, side by side. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 07:05 - 07:08 Yeah. Get our assistance on that. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 07:08 - 07:15 All 10 of them are showrunners. Wait, that'd be Robin and Hillary. Exactly. Dang. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 07:17 - 07:33 Okay. So, but circling back, sitting in my car. Yeah. That's that moment where it's like, do you get that breath where you, you know, kind of absorb a little bit what happened or you let it out. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 07:33 - 07:42 I mean, I've been known to like scream on the way home. I can see that. Scream therapy. Hey. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 07:42 - 07:52 Kind of. Whatever works. So if I do feel the need to like get it out to scream, I usually try to get out of the parking lot first. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 07:52 - 08:01 Always a good idea. Security guards come running. Sorry, just some obstetric violence. Just getting it out, sorry. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 08:01 - 08:09 What would the Nagoskis say? But I, no, I do sing. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 08:09 - 09:02 um on on the way home like because that's one of the things i like to do is and that my i give concerts in the car i totally sing in the car and so i do that rather than scream so almost the playlist i'm listening to okay you know will kind of show you what i need after a birth it doesn't always have something to do with the birth it could be me reintegrating um but yeah sometimes it's keeping yourself awake sometimes it is yeah for those doulas who have long drives now if you're on the subway probably not a good idea to scream everything out loud but maybe someone's gonna throw you some money i don't know if you're driving if you're riding in an uber on the way home yeah maybe don't do this it might be on taxi confessions or whatever it is oh my gosh can you imagine it's like the the taxi cab that does the game shows pulled up to take you home Can I write the questions? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 09:03 - 09:04 That'd be fun. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 09:04 - 09:15 We should probably just like become Uber drivers just to have like birth questions and do our own like game show version, like the birth doula, postpartum doula, like game show Uber. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 09:15 - 09:16 I like that. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 09:17 - 09:21 Yeah. Or we could even do DoorDash. Like you can only have your food if you can answer these three questions. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 09:21 - 09:22 I'm not sure that's ethical. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 09:23 - 09:27 Oh, okay. Well, all right. There goes another brilliant idea. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 09:28 - 09:40 Okay. So singing and sometimes that's because it was so amazing. And sometimes I don't know if you have tricks to keep yourself awake. I have a very short drive home from the hospital. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 09:40 - 09:52 I go to the most often, but I'm telling you sometimes if it's three in the morning and I was there for, even if I wasn't there a long time, I just, I'm tired. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 09:52 - 09:54 Well, rolling down the windows. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 09:55 - 09:58 Yep, I rolled on singing loudly stick my head out a little bit. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 09:59 - 10:03 I don't stick my head out. I do like Yeah, myself on the face a little bit. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 10:03 - 10:19 I wonder if that sound is gonna. Oh, I don't pinch myself self love a pinch myself under my arm. So if you ever like see my underarm and there's like bruises there, that was probably self-inflicted from keeping myself away. I think that's probably a problem. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 10:19 - 10:31 Yeah, that's maybe not something I should, maybe I should talk to my therapist about that. But no, but seriously, yeah, the slapping yourself a little bit or, and I'm not you. No, I don't. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 10:31 - 10:35 And we'll notice I thought the pinching was self-harming and the smacking was. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 10:35 - 10:52 Yeah, the smacking is okay, yeah. Um, so yeah, that that's, but once I get home, I find sometimes it's, it's hard because if my family's all awake and then they all went to like a, yeah, I need all of these things. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 10:52 - 10:54 Welcome back into the world. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 10:54 - 11:02 And that feels like a slap in the face. Um, I have a longer I've been a doula though. They've gotten better. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 11:02 - 11:05 because they know the quality they're going to get is not good. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 11:05 - 11:16 Yeah. Do you want mom to snap at you? Please attack her as she walks in the door. Although I have once been like surprised by my dog in the middle of the night. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 11:17 - 11:19 How did your dog surprise you? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 11:20 - 11:39 He like I was walking up the stairs to go to our bedroom and my husband had to close the door. And so he had jumped down and was standing at the top of the stairs. And I was like, you know, not really paying attention, going up the stairs. And then I hear him bark and I was like, everyone else slept through it. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 11:39 - 11:43 But thankfully I did not attack the 11 pound monster. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 11:43 - 11:58 So I want to take a shower when I get home. So I jump in the shower, even if it's 3 AM, even if it's just 30 seconds. And. You know, so I will jump in the shower, wash off really quickly. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 11:58 - 12:19 Well, I go to the door, throw in my clothes in the washer and then walk upstairs. And one of the things that my kids like to steal my robe, which hangs downstairs in the laundry room. And so I have to streak if they've removed my robe. And one time I got caught by one of my daughters and she's like, mom running through the house. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 12:19 - 12:25 I'm like, you all stole my robe. Like what am I supposed to do? Um, so then I go up, get in the shower. I know it's hilarious. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 12:25 - 12:29 Just imagine it used to be, I've been to your house. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 12:30 - 12:49 And so it's a long way from the laundry room to my bedroom. And so I get upstairs, take a shower, and then I'll put on a nightgown and get in bed. And, you know, then my husband sometimes will roll over and be like, how was the birth? And he wants not a play by play, but you know, he wants to know, like, how do I feel? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 12:49 - 13:06 Like I'm at a good mood, you know? And I'm just like, I'm just like, go away. Like, I don't want to talk to any, like, I, I am an introvert. And so like, I am so drained, even if it was lovely, I'm just like, I don't want to talk to anybody. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 13:06 - 13:13 And I'm. when I get home immediately, I'm like, I get that post-birth high. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 13:13 - 13:17 Yeah, well, I can't sleep. Okay. Even at 3 a.m. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 13:17 - 13:18 Emotionally drained. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 13:18 - 13:36 Emotionally, I can't. So that's when I will go to books and I will listen to a book and I, you know, I will try and find like the least, like, I don't want to do anything heavy. So that's a pretty low number of books, but. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 13:36 - 13:37 Fantasy. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 13:38 - 13:50 Not really, no. I read almost any genre. Like people give me a recommendation, I usually will check it out. One of the things that listeners may not know about me is I love to read. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 13:50 - 13:56 And once I got over my grad school hate is from reading and jump back in. Last year I read 150 books. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 13:58 - 13:58 Nice. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 13:58 - 14:06 So as of this recording, it is the 22nd of January and I already am 17 books into the year. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 14:06 - 14:16 Are you kidding me? No. That's ridiculous. Well, are you counting the, is this if you're reading the whole book or if I read the whole book? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 14:16 - 14:42 okay well i didn't know i was the there's only one book i have oh yeah no versions no i i also i don't count any of the books on like blink or anything like that no um i um i have only not finished one book and it was a very popular book that year do i want to know we won't give no you'll tell me afterwards but um Dr. Hillary Melchiors 14:43 - 14:50 Yeah. So I, and I do like to listen to audio books a lot. I mean, I'm in that stage of parenthood where I'm the chauffeur. So. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 14:51 - 15:09 I mean, a podcast would work. I mean, like some, some doulas will tell me they listened to the sleep with me podcast as a way to just shut their brain off. Because even if it's the middle of the night, your body could be completely exhausted, but your brain is like. Like running and even if it's not a bad thing, right? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 15:09 - 15:20 Just all of that hormonal energy going on. And so finding a way to shut your brain down, whatever that is, is it playing video games? Is it painting? Is it writing? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 15:20 - 15:33 Some people I know come home and write in a journal, like they sort of have like a birth log. and they'll write it down. So that is one thing that you could do. You know, sometimes it's the singing and dancing, right? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 15:33 - 15:42 So there are some people who come home and they have a dance party, as they call it, where even in the middle of the night, they have to put on their, you know, earbuds and they'll dance and stuff. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 15:43 - 15:54 That's not my, that's not my thing, but I can totally see where it would work. Yeah. I'll listen to like a sleepcast on, on Headspace. It's an app that I really enjoy. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 15:55 - 16:22 Once I got over my like, oh, meditation app, I was like, oh no, this is actually just making it accessible for me. I get no love from them for mentioning that on the podcast, just I actually read the app. But they have those sleep casts on there, which are like stories with like ambient sound and then I'll have like a breathing exercise. It just helped me calm my nervous system. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 16:22 - 16:37 So that's one of the things I really like to do, but always shower because, as I explained to one partner recently, those nurses don't wear their shoes home. this, like, no, they know about it's not just COVID. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 16:37 - 16:41 During COVID, everybody's gotten so conscious. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 16:41 - 16:51 And I want to be like, hey, the hospital offers you plenty of things like C. diff and MRSA, hepatitis, like, you don't want any of it. It's not COVID. It's everything. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 16:51 - 17:03 Exactly. So like, you don't want all those things. Our friend Lauren and I have talked about that before. It was like, she was like, Oh, are you sitting on your couch in your birth pants? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 17:03 - 17:09 And I was like, Oh, I shouldn't be. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 17:09 - 17:37 So let's talk about food. Because this is actually something that in my alumni group we've talked about multiple times is, you know, what do you eat after a birth? And I got some really surprising answers when I asked this question. So if you eat after a birth, like, so some people may not feel hungry, but apparently being ravenous after birth, maybe you haven't eaten really well in a couple of hours or days, depending on where you are, what is your go-to? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 17:37 - 17:39 Like if you could eat anything, what would it be? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 17:39 - 17:54 Well, I'll say I almost always, and you're going to love this answer, but I almost always eat an Uncrustable on the way home. My fave. Although mine, I typically have the grape jelly ones. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 17:54 - 17:56 Well, that's wrong. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 17:57 - 17:57 I know. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 17:58 - 18:00 At least you didn't say the Nutella version. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 18:01 - 18:02 they make those? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 18:02 - 18:03 They do, they're not good. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 18:04 - 18:05 That sounds so good. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 18:05 - 18:05 It's too much. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 18:06 - 18:11 Yeah, okay, I could see that. I'd be willing to give it a shot. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 18:12 - 18:15 You're making kind of my ode to the Uncrustable, aren't you? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 18:15 - 18:29 I literally love the Uncrustable because I have this like little Tupperware thing that I'll put in there with the put it in so it doesn't get squished. And I love it. I love it. So I'm comfortable. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 18:29 - 18:53 But if I could have anything, there's this one, you know, vegan takeout place in Evansville that I will go and it's like I treat myself. If they're open, I'm going to get food from there. Because it's a little more on the pricey side for something that I do. Otherwise, I go to this really awesome Mediterranean place that I really also like. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 18:53 - 19:18 So something healthy, full of nutrients, because I know very well that most Eulas, that's not what they're going for. I also know about myself that I mean, I literally would love to get a giant like, you know, nacho fries from Taco Bell with the cheese sauce, which is where most they're like, I don't even eat meat, but I'll drive through and get like a big greasy burger. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 19:18 - 19:28 And sometimes it's what's open at midnight or 3am. Like it might only be Taco Bell. Yeah. So the doulas talked up some fry thing someplace. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 19:28 - 19:47 I don't remember what it was, but I was on a long road trip by myself last summer and I was like, oh, hey, like, I'll get this fry thing that there was some like fries with cheese. It was so nasty. is everything better after a birth? Like you go to a birth and you're, you've been up so long. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 19:47 - 19:49 You're like, Oh yeah. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 19:49 - 20:23 I mean, it was just, I mean, like I even like cheese whiz to kind of tell you like the cheese I'll tolerate. And this was like, yeah, so I can eat cheese whiz, but I can't eat, I could not eat this cheese. So, but yeah, I hear a lot of like, Oh, I get some big greasy burger or a shake and fries. So no, it's just, I found that really interesting because I would have thought, I mean, I guess that is possible to be comfort food, but I would think like, I think if I could have anything, it would just be like some matzo ball soup or some chicken noodle Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 20:23 - 20:34 soup, like something warm and comforting to me. And I guess comfort food looks, I mean, I know comfort food looks different for everyone, but just, you know, you can't really drive through and get some matzo ball soup. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 20:37 - 20:38 We don't have one of those? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 20:38 - 20:38 No. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 20:38 - 20:49 Who would that be? Like if there's like Auntie Annie's for pretzels, like what would it be for like matzo ball soup? Like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 20:49 - 20:50 Auntie Robbins. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 20:51 - 20:55 No. No. Probably Sarah. Oh, Auntie Sarah? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 20:55 - 20:56 Oh, I love that. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 20:56 - 21:00 I actually have a very good friend named Sarah who could 100% do that. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 21:00 - 21:07 So there you go. Matzo ball soup. Dr. Sarah Rubin will give you a shout out today. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 21:08 - 21:17 Anyway, so, um, yeah, but having like nourishing yourself in that way. Right. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 21:17 - 21:24 Yeah. Like physically, like, you know, you probably are dehydrated. You probably didn't drink enough. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 21:24 - 21:33 Oh my gosh. Can we talk about that for a second though? Because I'm terrible at births about hydrating myself partly. Okay. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 21:33 - 22:01 Number one, yes, Americans are way too obsessed with hydration. Like generally, like, no, you don't need to drink a gallon of water a day. Like that's, unless you really like peeing, um, which was a whole, I mean, anyway, that was a whole lovely episode on one of my favorite podcasts, science versus give them a shout today. But, uh, so, but, um, they, but I like intentionally don't drink very much water, which is terrible. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 22:02 - 22:16 but because I don't want to have to like leave my client and go pee very often. Um, which is, yeah, I need to take care of myself and model better self-care behavior, honestly. And I know that. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 22:17 - 22:36 But I think it starts by talking about it, right? I think we don't talk about it enough. It's like doulas are sort of out there figuring this out. And by the way, this goes for midwives and anybody, labor and delivery nurses, anybody who's going to these really intense, you know, and labor and delivery nurses do multiple per shift, right? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 22:36 - 22:51 Experiences and then having to like walk into everyday life. Yeah. which you just left somebody's biggest moment in their life and you walk into, you know, the dog pooped on the floor when you got home. Like your life like picks right back up. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 22:51 - 23:10 Yeah. And I think we don't, one of the things we don't do really well in our society here is celebrating those big things. and we have no ritual for it, which I think is why you wanted to talk about this. So I think it goes beyond just the, you know, oh, I sat down in the car, I took a shower, like, this is what I eat. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 23:10 - 23:26 And to think about, you know, what kind of ritual do you do to talk about, like, whichever part of this is important for you? I know one of the things that you incorporate into your fee or things that you pull out of your doula fee is you love a good soak and a good massage. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 23:26 - 23:41 I do love a good soak and a good massage. But I think we have to be careful. And I know we have other doulas who are like, I absolutely have to get a massage, you know, after birth. Of course, I mean, because it can be very physically demanding. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 23:41 - 23:59 And, you know, some of that is like somatic. We wear some of our straps and all of that. But I mean, it's not to say that you have to spend a bunch of money, right? So there are some things that I want to spend money and that I prioritize because that's what works for me. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 24:00 - 24:11 But that ritual doesn't have to involve spending money on massage, right? It doesn't have to, like, you can incorporate some of those things. Also, most people probably have great bathtubs at their house. I don't know. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 24:11 - 24:15 I do not. I do. I know you do. You have a great story about yours as well. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 24:16 - 24:35 But I wanted, before I forget, I want to tell you a side story about labor and delivery nurses and PA. Because I once was with a client and we were in recovery and she was snoring. She had had a long labor. She ended up needing a cesarean. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 24:35 - 24:47 She was there. I was her only support person, but she was literally snoring. And this nurse who I knew really well, hey, do you think I could sneak out? I haven't peed in like 10 hours. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 24:48 - 24:57 And she was like, oh my gosh, are you okay? And I was like, I'm fine. I just really need to go. And she was like, you would be a great labor and delivery nurse. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 24:57 - 25:13 I know that they don't take care of themselves in a lot of ways. Yeah. And that being one of them, and that's hard, but I, and I hope, I mean, I really do. And I know I say this, I love great labor and delivery nurse. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 25:14 - 25:29 I want them to take care of themselves too. So the other thing I really like to do is to talk to somebody, another birth worker, and decompress by talking about what happened. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 25:29 - 25:38 And that might not be until later, later. That's not necessary. I mean, sometimes it's 3 AM, but sometimes it's the next day or two. Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 25:38 - 25:51 And sometimes that looks like, hey, was this normal? What could I have done different? And sometimes it's just, can you believe this happened? Or, oh my gosh, I saw the most amazing thing. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 25:53 - 25:56 But of course the anthropologist wants to talk about ritual, right? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 25:58 - 26:34 Well, you know, so I think that I don't do anything like, Like, you know, if my back hurts, I'll get a massage. Like, I don't have it part of that. But I think that I'll shout out good friend and sociologist doula, Abby Jorgensen, because I love her family ritual, which is part of her fee always goes to buy what she calls birthday dinner. And they celebrate as a family coming back together. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 26:34 - 26:48 and celebrate the new life. She says, you know, birthday dinner without the baby, but it's a good way, particularly if you have younger children. Right. I I've always taken the tack and I started working as a doula before I had children. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 26:49 - 27:06 And so my kids grew up with moms, a doula, but. there are people who come home, they're like, I'm so sorry, I missed this thing. And I, you know, I just always said, you know, hey, I'm a doula, this is what it means. And sometimes I'm going to miss things. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 27:06 - 27:33 But I always made it like the kids are really excited, I would come home from a birth, and they would, you know, ask me questions. And eventually, they learned like what information I would give, which was very minor, you know, like boy or girl, like kind of thing. Or, you know, you know, and so I came home one day and, and the kids said like, Oh, you know, was it a boy or a girl? And I said, it was a girl and it had to be a family friend that they knew. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 27:33 - 27:50 And so like, they knew who it was and the person was fine with it. So they asked me the name of the baby and I gave her the name of the baby. And the funny thing is, we're Jewish, so we don't name for a while. And then my older child, so the younger child was like, oh, they named the baby really quickly. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 27:51 - 28:04 And then my older child was like, well, Christians have a list of names. And they just essentially pick one. And I was just like, we need to talk. We are the odd people out here not naming right away. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 28:04 - 28:31 People have names. We were dating, and we picked this name. You know, I think having family also kind of adds to that ritual, whether it is something as formalized as Abby's birthday dinner, or whether it is, you know, and, you know, so for example, I was, I was a doula for somebody that my children knew, but this person, like, I didn't, like, The kids didn't know I was their doula. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 28:32 - 28:45 And so they went to this location the next day and the person, it was announced that they'd had a baby and they came home and they're like, did you know that so-and-so had a baby? I was like, really? That is awesome! Right. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 28:45 - 29:09 Sometimes then there's just that no clue kind of the miss. So I think like, what can you do for your kids to the one, the one piece of advice I'll give is never, ever, ever, if there's like a limited number of engagements for your child's play or a game, like always go the first one, because if you need to miss it because of the birth, then you can make it up. But if you push it off to the end, that is exactly when your client will have their baby. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 29:09 - 29:13 So just some words from an experienced doula there. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 29:12 - 29:25 100% true. There's a reason. I mean, I have a theater kid. So yeah, we buy tickets, we end up buying tickets to almost every show just in case like it sells out. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 29:25 - 29:26 I don't mind. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 29:27 - 29:46 Yeah, no, I did. Just so you know, I did, the principal did let me come to the shortened version for the school on the last, I was really grateful for because otherwise I wouldn't have gotten to see it. My child would have still be talking about it if I'd missed that. And I would like kick myself because I was just so tired. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 29:46 - 30:02 And I was like, I'll go tomorrow. Robin, you know, that my oldest child is still angry that I missed one of their softball games. to film 1,000 Pound Sisters. Like she's still mad, like several years later. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 30:02 - 30:05 I'm like, okay, let it go, man. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 30:05 - 30:06 Like let it go. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 30:06 - 30:16 I was, I can't. Let it go, honey. Like, I'm sorry. I'm gonna miss things like that. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 30:17 - 30:27 But, but what I have now, the ritual, like that we have like fallen into is Her mom's sleeping, leave her alone. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 30:27 - 30:37 Your kids are 12 and 14, right? That's a pretty typical ritual because it's that mom, mom, right? Like I need something. But yeah, that's... Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 30:37 - 30:47 Who's driving me to my thing? Not me. My kids made the mistake of asking me what was for dinner the other night. I was like, I've never cooked for you in your life. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 30:47 - 30:59 What are you doing every week? It's pretty close to true, particularly for some of the younger kids. Eventually my husband was like, no, just get out of the kitchen. Like, do not make that rice thing again. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 30:59 - 31:04 I don't think we could eat it. I know sometimes I like to make taco soup and they're just like, oh, that's nice, mom. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 31:05 - 31:08 But I like it. Have your taco soup. Love it. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 31:09 - 31:10 Perry Schilling's recipe. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 31:11 - 31:15 I had it at the Lamas training. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 31:15 - 31:24 Exactly. Yeah, that's what we feed you. So let me ask you as an anthropologist. No, you're frightened. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 31:24 - 31:28 I'm always worried I'm going to get like my card taken away or something. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 31:28 - 31:40 No. Okay. So what makes for a good ritual? Like there's not a perfect ritual that everyone could do, but if we've got a birth worker out there listening, who's like, Hey, I need to kind of figure out my ritual is not stumble into one. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 31:40 - 31:45 What are some elements to consider in making a ritual? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 31:46 - 31:52 But while you're thinking, let me tell a funny story. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 31:52 - 32:14 So, um, I have a rabbi friend who always taught, he was really into ritual. He was like, I think a good ritual deserves an element of fear. So I don't, so I don't know that like this kind of ritual, an element of fear would be appropriate. But every time I think ritual, I always hear my friends say, oh, an element of fear. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 32:14 - 32:18 And he says it with like spark in his eyes, right? Like he's excited about that. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 32:19 - 32:24 I'm imagining a lot of really frightening things right now, like hot coal walking. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 32:24 - 32:33 No, I don't know. We could do some hot coal walking. Catch us live next year doing hot coal walking. I'll be clapping while Hillary walks on the coals. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 32:34 - 32:34 Not really. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 32:35 - 32:38 And we'll keep buzz at the top of the stairs. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 32:38 - 32:45 But. Right, I think there are, like, what should people expect out of a ritual? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 32:45 - 33:24 Yeah, so I think, in my opinion, the ritual, the important part of a ritual is that it's important to you. And in this specific case, for example, I would say the part of what makes it special and important is that you do it all repeatedly, right? And that it helps get you into the space that you need to down-regulate your nervous system, to like come down from this work high and to transition, right? It's literally honoring the transition. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 33:24 - 33:43 A new life has come into the world, or you've just supported a family in their home, right? In a postpartum experience. So it's that down-regulating and switching modes. So whatever it means that you're, you know, your left foot's pushing the clutch. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 33:44 - 34:12 But like, that's also, you know, part of it, right? So I would say, you know, some kind of, we're gonna look at it from an anthropological perspective, some kind of like repetition and what is important to you. And trying to find a way to to shift gears and to acknowledge that that transition is happening for yourself personally. So whether that means you're getting a massage or not, I mean, for some people that's important. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 34:12 - 34:13 It could be a cup of coffee. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 34:13 - 34:42 Yeah. And like, that's one of the things about like tea, for example, is like, what's almost more important to people who regularly drink tea is the ritual of making it and the steps in the process, right? So whether that's Those steps are I sit down in my car, take my sweater off, change my shoes, put them on, you know, and then I drive home and seeing what's going on at the top of my lungs. And I don't know, that's just a fun one to yell. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 34:44 - 34:50 And then when I walk in the door, I go in the garage and I get naked. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 34:50 - 34:55 Hopefully my, hopefully. Oh, you get naked in the garage. I was like, I do not get naked in the garage. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 34:56 - 35:30 Hopefully my, you know, my robe is still hanging there. And then I walk upstairs and I get in the shower and like all of those things. It's that repetition and what is in, what helps you personally. And that ritual is going to help you again, like I said, down regulate and get out of work mode and into post birth or, I mean, the thing I struggle with is like, when does that part end? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 35:31 - 35:51 Well, and I think, right, so if you're thinking about the transition part, right, so even transition in labor, right, you're in labor. And then there's this transition from labor to pushing. And sometimes that takes a long time and sometimes it doesn't take any time at all. And it's the same thing, right? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 35:51 - 36:08 Sometimes you may be at a birth where you can make that transition really quickly. And other times you may be at a birth where you need more time in that holding space, whatever, you know, whatever that looks like for you. Maybe that's a day where I stay in bed a little bit longer. Unfortunately, right. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 36:08 - 36:41 We also have lives and sometimes we have to shift. So I want to say like, if you wind up with a hard shift where you make that really hard turn that you probably need to find some downtime later where you can stop and kind of go back, even if it's not doing the, like, I'm not going to take off my shoes and my sweater and like run through the house naked is like, but I'm going to refuse to say certain things right now. But Right? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 36:41 - 36:45 Like it's, it is a thing. Um, so I think you need to take that time. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 36:45 - 36:53 And, and a lot of the time, like I have at least a few times, it has been a hard shift from one birth to literally. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 36:53 - 36:54 Oh, absolutely. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 36:54 - 37:10 Um, where, you know, like, okay, I left this hospital. I went home, showered, changed my clothes and got right back in the car and went to someone at someone's house. Like, or, I mean, I went from this hospital room to, I mean, like that's happened too. So, and I know you've been there too. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 37:11 - 37:14 I've gotten the car and drove however to the next place, you know? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 37:15 - 37:46 So it's easier when you can drive, cause there's at least that transition, but I have done like a birth and then gone immediately to like down the hall to another birth. And that is, you know, sometimes that might be where you hide in the bathroom for five minutes and, you know, listen to whatever song kind of clears your head. And that could be like, for me, it's like a pretty like intense fast song would not be considered like relaxing, but other people, it may be more relaxing. So it's my study music. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 37:47 - 37:48 Your study music? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 37:48 - 37:48 Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 37:49 - 37:51 What do you listen to for study music? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 37:51 - 37:52 Do I have to admit it? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 37:52 - 37:59 I kind of want to know. Dear listeners, don't you want to know what Robin, you could maybe just genre, I don't know. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 38:00 - 38:01 That's super massive black hole. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 38:01 - 38:07 Okay, but that's not bad. I was imagining like Gwar or something, you know. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 38:07 - 38:13 I don't even know what that is. No, I'm not gonna look it up. No, no, no, no. We just got off a whole YouTube thing. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 38:13 - 38:32 Hillary made me fall down the track. But Right. So for me, that just like, at some point in my life, when I heard that, that just helped me turn everything off to not study to it. And my husband's like, you're studying to that, that one song over and over and over. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 38:32 - 38:38 Yes. Actually I can shut my brain down and do my thing. Okay. So that's what I listened to. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 38:39 - 38:40 Low-fi. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 38:41 - 38:43 I do a lot of low-fi too, but not, not there. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 38:43 - 38:50 Yeah. Like chill jazz or. I do better without words. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 38:51 - 39:02 Those aren't really words. I also like Alt-J if I had to pick. So Alt-J is good for heading to a birth. This is from Matilda. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 39:03 - 39:04 That's a nice going to a birth song. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 39:05 - 39:07 I like it. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 39:07 - 39:08 Weird music Robin listens to. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 39:10 - 39:21 I think having that post-birth ritual is a little It's a brain reset, you know, which you need. Absolutely. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 39:22 - 39:23 And a heart reset for some of us. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 39:24 - 39:34 Yes. Sometimes I wish my partner would use that time driving home to do that. So instead of listening to the news. To your point, right? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 39:34 - 39:54 We don't think about this enough and it's something we actively need to think about as opposed to, and I said this a little bit earlier, right? And we can use it in lots of places in our life. And sometimes it's a little more obvious, right? you don't act the same way in a library that you would in, you know, a soccer stadium. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 39:55 - 40:12 And so we need to realize that as birth workers, we're in this really weird space that not a lot of people are privileged to get to see, and that that transition has to happen. And we need to guide it because nobody else is going to do it. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 40:12 - 40:14 Yeah, that's a great point. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 40:15 - 40:32 When we're younger, our parents help us hopefully learn to make those shifts, right? Like bedtime rituals and morning rituals. And so I look at this the same way. And so that leaves it to other doulas to help people figure out what is their ritual. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 40:32 - 40:40 Right. And they don't have to be not neurodivergent to need to like benefit from it as well. Sorry. I just keep imagining. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 40:40 - 41:01 I have one kid who is, yeah, it has, some, yeah, I don't even want to say. Yeah. Anyway, she thrives on routine and ritual, um, which is really challenging sometimes when our life just doesn't look like that sometimes. And so being able to do that for ourselves, um, and realizing. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 41:01 - 41:13 Yeah. One of the duels on my team will like always wants to go on a run when she gets home. She's like, cause it exhausts me physically, mentally. Yeah. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 41:13 - 41:17 I can see that. Oh, I wish I was like that. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 41:19 - 41:21 I'd probably be better. That's all right. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 41:21 - 41:33 At least, I don't know. It's just, you know, what works for you. And I think that that's, yeah. I think that that can help stave off some burnout as well. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 41:33 - 41:41 Absolutely. And not forgetting the verbal or mental processing part of it. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 41:42 - 41:54 Even if that's written. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Or on the way home from a birth, you could even turn on, you know, voice to text and do it out loud in your car and have it all typed out for yourself. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 41:55 - 42:06 Right. Like with a Google doc or something, I've done some verbal notes that way, particularly if I have a long way to go. Right. Sometimes just saying words out loud, even if it's to no one. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 42:06 - 42:06 Yeah. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 42:07 - 42:23 about yourself or replaying conversations in your head. I like to pre-plan conversations that gives me that practice with them. They may never go the way that I planned them, right? I'll plan for confrontation and then it doesn't happen, but I'm like, oh, but I was prepared if it did, right? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 42:23 - 42:33 And I'm like, oh, that went so much better than I thought. But the same thing, like post, doing that post-mortem on the conversations and things that you had, I think can be really helpful as well. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 42:34 - 42:40 Do you give yourself time like to not work? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 42:40 - 43:04 That's a hard question for me because work is, I'm starting to realize that I love my work so much that I have to like stop myself from working. So for example, right now, the way my schedule is this semester, I have one day where literally I go from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. and I have like a two hour break where I'm not, my time is not accounted for. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 43:04 - 43:15 And my tendency and it's later in the afternoon, like four to 6pm. And so nobody really needs me in the house. I'm not yet ready to teach at six. I know. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 43:16 - 43:37 Well, I teach at six. So I've got two hours and I would sit and work. And so I've learned to just say like, I just, I literally have to force myself to lay in bed for like an hour and a half. And I can listen to books and I can play like little things on my phone, but I'm trying not to answer email or work on my website or write or write. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 43:37 - 43:51 I'm trying to just not use my brain as much or to do something that is not that. So for me, right, that is, I like to work and working can be very therapeutic and that's not true for everyone. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 43:51 - 44:00 So I find it exhausting sometimes to like try to jump into work when my brain is still like elsewhere. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 44:01 - 44:31 And sometimes you have to, like there are doulas out there who are working full-time and working as doulas. And so one of the things, having been that doula for many, many years, one of the things I would tell you is figure out what tasks you can do when you're in that space, whether it be you're physically, mentally, or emotionally exhausted, and figure out what you can do to look busy at work, essentially, right? Getting some work done, but not necessarily the stuff that, and so sometimes that means I save reports. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 44:31 - 44:53 you know, or I would save reports that were pretty mindless to do when I, you know, you know, I knew I could get it done pretty quickly. And I knew I was on call and I knew, right. Like I could, even if the baby would come in the same window that this report was due. So I would always just kind of wait and use something like that report as something I would spend my day doing and be like, oh, I can't do it. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 44:53 - 45:13 I'm, you know, doing such and such report, right? Like I would have a legitimate excuse to sit at my desk and stare. at the computer and not have to really think, just push a button every now and then. So if you can get away with it, trying to plan your work around your Tula schedule as a way to protect yourself as well. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 45:13 - 45:17 I'm still just jealous that your kids don't need you. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 45:18 - 45:28 Okay, so that acts like they don't act like they need me. Or so right now, one of my kids may be at work herself. So she's usually gone until about seven. Right. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 45:29 - 45:32 And then my other daughter is at the, I don't talk to my mother stage. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 45:32 - 45:33 Oh, okay. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 45:34 - 45:34 Right. So. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 45:35 - 45:36 Cause you only have two at home. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 45:36 - 45:39 I only have two at home. And I only have two. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 45:42 - 45:48 But they, yeah, so I'm in the stage of three from 3. P.M. Until sometimes 9. P.M. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 45:48 - 46:14 I am chauffeur mom. But I can at least, I can delegate some of that, which is helpful. Like I call my village, literally, hey, who can bring, you know, this kid home from rehearsal, who can bring this kid to softball, who can, you know, order a pizza. That's my husband. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 46:14 - 46:22 But I mean, I do a little treat yourself, you know, sorry. Are you a Parks and Rec fan, Robin? No, probably not. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 46:22 - 46:26 I actually have watched the whole thing. Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, all right. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 46:26 - 46:30 That's pretty unusual for me. That's really unusual for me. I know. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 46:30 - 46:38 I actually got a cultural reference. I'm very excited. Treat yourself. So I'm a bit of a treat yourself the day after, especially. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 46:38 - 46:52 I think that's fair. But, and yeah, I, you know, I try to lean into the relaxation a little bit. Not that I don't enjoy my work, I just very much need some separation. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 46:53 - 47:03 And everybody needs a different level of separation. Some people need a lot, some people need a little. Take what works for you and use it, and if it doesn't work, don't. Exactly, exactly. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 47:05 - 47:06 So Hilary. Oh. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 47:09 - 47:14 Robyn's gonna ask me a question. Did you pick it already? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 47:14 - 47:16 Oh, it's funny, my name is next to one. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 47:16 - 47:29 I know because- I know, I know, I know. I just think it's really interesting. We're not always together when we're recording, but we're together right now. So Robin gets to see the other side. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 47:30 - 47:41 Would you rather build an epic sand castle or a decent tree house? A decent tree house. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 47:42 - 47:44 Do you want me to expand? Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 47:44 - 47:46 Well, it was funny because you looked at me like, well, duh. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 47:48 - 47:58 Well, OK. You know this about me, I think, already, but I'm not a beach person. We had this whole discussion last year. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 47:58 - 47:59 No, I know you're not a beach person. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 47:59 - 48:03 But part of it is because of the sand. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 48:04 - 48:08 Yeah, that's actually what I was thinking when I was thinking how I'd answer that. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 48:08 - 48:09 It's like it gets everywhere. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 48:10 - 48:14 The beauty of like those epic sandcastles and saying I did that. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 48:14 - 48:32 Yeah, okay, but this is the other thing you may or may not know about me. If I cannot make it like I have the picture in my head, this is why I have trouble with art. sometimes that I get royally frustrated. And so I just, then I'm just like, whatever. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 48:32 - 48:33 And I walk. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 48:33 - 48:35 So you want a non-death trap treehouse? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 48:35 - 48:43 A non-death trap treehouse. Also, that sounds like a really great place to take a nap. Like above the mosquito line. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 48:43 - 48:44 I was going to say, what about the bugs? Dr. Hillary Melchiors 48:45 - 48:53 There's a point, right? Above the mosquito line. Yeah. And I generally, like, I find the woods very calming. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 48:53 - 49:06 It's not, again, not that I hate the ocean, my- You ocean hater. I'm literally going to the ocean. I know, I was like, wait, did we have those summers? But like, it's just more the sand. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 49:06 - 49:17 And I do find, you know, the sound of the ocean very calming, but like, and I'm okay with sand between my toes, but sand between like my Underneath my fingernails. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 49:17 - 49:19 So build a decent tree house. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 49:19 - 49:31 Yeah. I always wanted a tree house too when I was a kid. I really did. And there's this one place in Southern Indiana where Andy took me, so it was kind of like a tree house where we stayed. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 49:32 - 49:33 It was pretty fun. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 49:33 - 49:38 Nice. He knows what I like. As he should. As he should. Dr. Hillary Melchiors 49:39 - 49:39 Yes. Dr. Robin Elise Weiss 49:42 - 49:45 Thanks, Bird Geeks. Bye.